Everyday Burnout Conversations
Everyday burnout conversations is an honest podcast sharing the burnout experiences of others from all walks of life. Host, Flic Taylor, is a writer whose passion for burnout arose when she became a mental health writer dealing with severe burnout - and yes, the irony is not lost on her! Enjoy these weekly conversations sharing stories of surviving and thriving, all delightfully wrapped up in epic truths, compassion, and humour.
Everyday Burnout Conversations
Dr Claire Plumbly | How your relationship attachment style can impact stress and burnout
In this everyday burnout conversation, I sit down to chat with Dr Claire Plumbly.
Claire is a Clinical Psychologist & Director of Good Therapy Ltd, a psychological therapy centre based online and in Taunton, Somerset. Her private practice specialises in trauma-related issues, and Claire herself has a specialism in sexual assault, early life traumas, and burnout.
Her highly anticipated book Burnout: how to manage your nervous system before it manages you is set for release in the UK this summer and December in the US – and aims to be the roadmap out of burnout for anyone who keeps getting stuck in the burnout cycle and has realised there isn't a quick-fix kinda solution!
This fabulous conversation is a favourite of mine. Claire helps us delve into the history, theory, and development of attachment theory—something I’ve personally found so helpful for shedding light on my own behaviour patterns as I navigate a new life post-burnout.
Learn more about Claire and her work
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Pre-order Claire’s book here
Mentioned in this episode
Online Attachment Style Questionnaire: https://www.attachmentproject.com/attachment-style-quiz/
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Check out my latest work and discover how you can work one-to-one with me to tackle your burnout at flictaylor.com
Hello, I'm Flick and you're listening to Everyday Burnout Conversations. This is the honest podcast that shares burnout expertise, along with the stories of others from all walks of life that strive to inspire and help you manage and avoid burnout. Now, my passion for burnout and self-care came about when I became a mental health writer who'd lost her own mental health to severe burnout and it's an irony that's not lost on me. So get set to enjoy another great conversation, delightfully wrapped up in some wisdom, humour and great storytelling. Enjoy up in some wisdom, humour and great storytelling. Enjoy In this everyday burnout conversation.
Flic Taylor :I sit down to chat with Dr Claire Plumbley. Claire is a clinical psychologist and director of Good Therapy Limited, a psychological therapy centre based online and in Taunton, somerset. Her private practice specializes in trauma related issues and Claire herself has a specialism in sexual assault, early life traumas and burnout. Her highly anticipated book Burnout how to Manage your Nervous System Before it Manages you is set for release in the UK this summer and in December in the US. Claire's book is the roadmap out of burnout for anyone who keeps getting stuck and has realised there just isn't a quick fix kind of solution.
Flic Taylor :Now, this fabulous conversation is a favourite of mine. Claire helps us delve into the history, the theory and development of attachment theory. And actually learning about attachment theory is something I've personally found so helpful for shedding light on my own behaviour patterns as I navigate a new life, post-burner, and I'm sure it's going to bring some powerful insights for you too. So, without further ado ado, here's the lovely dr claire plumbley. Oh, my goodness, claire, I'm so excited to finally sit down and talk with you, because I have been. I'm really excited for your book coming out. I am waiting with love for that, with rated bread, um, because it's not long now, is it?
Claire Plumbly :not long, no, july. July the 18th or 24th, I get a bit muddled. Okay, I should probably make myself available for around the demobligation date, but yeah amazing, so not long to wait for your book.
Flic Taylor :And I know um, professionally, you're very familiar with the landscape of burnout and helping people through burnout and um, you know when we've been, we've been connecting for a little while now and plan to sit down and have a little chat together and you were like, why don't we talk about this subject, which I am just chomping at the bit to talk about, because it's something I have been exploring myself. So, claire, thank you for coming and sitting with me today.
Claire Plumbly :I've only come on because I needed to fill up on flick love, because you're so enthusiastic and friendly, like everybody just needs a dose of you in their life if they don't have you. So I'm sure that's why people come back to your podcast so much and people just want to come and chat to you. Like what topic will flick want? Oh, I know try this.
Flic Taylor :I love it. Honestly, I'm just so grateful for your time, but I also know this is an absolutely fascinating subject to talk about because it's uh, personally, obviously, I've been exploring this and I think it's a framework that really helps you profoundly look at your relationships with others and yourself and it really, when you're on that healing journey, you're looking at your core wounds and changing and adapting and your subconscious and your conscious yeah and I'm like, oh, I think it's really gonna help people. So, claire, talk to us a little bit about attachment theory.
Claire Plumbly :I mean it's great. So you've been doing a little bit of this work recently personally. Yeah, I think it's important to say before we launch into it for anybody listening, and because some of this stuff gets um a bit heavy, a little bit emotionally heavy, if you start exploring it. So just a little kind of I don't think what we're just talking overview today to give you a heads up, but when you go and explore it, I think you know can make you kind of go, oh, in terms of your background and you know, with burnout recovery there's different layers, of which you know you have to work out what's the layer I'm going at at the moment. What do I need right now? And attachment styles and um, how, yeah, attachment stuff is definitely one of the deep levels that you would go to.
Flic Taylor :So yes, absolutely, and this is why, um, it's so important that I share conversations with professionals like yourself, because you know, when you're looking, when you're going through those layers and you're kind of looking to see who can support you, it's really nice to have someone with a professional angle and lens support you, and so I'll put in the show notes where people can find you, because you own clinical practice, don't you so amazing Thanks.
Claire Plumbly :Plik Okay, yeah. So what was the question? Should we talk about what attachment is? Yeah, go for it. Yeah, yeah.
Claire Plumbly :So obviously some people listening to this might know full well what attachment is, but it's always good to hear it said out loud. So it's that emotional and psychological bond that we have with the important people in our lives. So, as an adult, you might have an attachment with a partner, your friends, your family, um, an attachment theory says that this, the way we have these bonds, the way we relate to these people, all kind of stems from our very early life, initial bonds in life with our primary caregivers, with the first two to three years being really formational in the kind of quality and like styles that we relate to people in our adult life. And of course, it's super important for our well-being because we know how disruptive it is when someone leaves or someone dies or there's. We feel abandoned in any kind of relationship in our lives where we've had a strong attachment. So you know that emotional pain is an indication of how important attachments are yeah, absolutely, absolutely, and it's interesting.
Flic Taylor :Um, you know, the reason I kind of started to look at this is because, you know, when you're struggling with burnout, whenever you're going through a certain period of life, you can feel very lonely and isolated and there's all those feelings of shame and you're just trying to navigate it all and it's you know, it's interesting. And it's you know it's interesting. You've got to look at the relationship you have with yourself. But also, you know, if you're looking for support and certain people aren't able to give that to you, you're kind of like what's going on and this way, oh, OK, yeah, yeah, and it's exactly that.
Claire Plumbly :Exactly that it's your um help seeking behaviors will be impacted by your attachment styles, but also the way you relate to yourself and your own distress, because it impacts on your relationship with yourself as well as others, um, and so how you soothe yourself, or whether you throw yourself into work to cope with the difficult distress that's all kind of related to the attachment styles yeah, absolutely so.
Flic Taylor :Shall we delve into the? Oh actually, you know what? Should we go into a little bit of the history of it.
Claire Plumbly :I am a history there, honestly like, I love this stuff, I love you. Yes, let's, let's, because it's interesting, because if we feel like this is just, oh, yeah, of course attachments are important. You know, um, and we parent now has stemmed from the history of this understanding of attachment and the importance of it. You know, gentle, parenting being attuned to your children, um, and all of this is really helpful, important, but it wasn't always like this, um. So if we rewind to the 1930s to 50s, um, there was a psychoanalyst called john bolby and he was doing a lot of work with families and children who were showing signs of mental health, you know difficulties, he was working to support them, um, and this combined with, um, his like some studies that were being done about maternal deprivation, so that time when children are separated for prolonged periods from particularly their mothers, or when parents, particularly mothers, weren't able to kind of meet the needs of children, their children, he was beginning to piece things together and think hang on a minute, this seems to add up where there's a correlation that the children who are most mentally unwell or doing behaviors like stealing and kind of breaking the law, they've had these experiences. So what's going on here? Maybe it's not the dominant psychological understanding of distress that the psychoanalysts all signed up to at the time, which was around. You know the Freudian fantasies and things like this kind of going wonky.
Claire Plumbly :Um, he was saying, actually maybe we need to spend more time looking and supporting the parental bond, um, and in particular, that you know a child that had a secure attachment. They seemed to fare best with their mental health, they kind of, so this secure base became a thing, um, so yeah, so that that was kind of right how it started, but he didn't actually, because I'm sure a lot of people listening will have a sense the different attachment styles as there's actually four that have been kind of pulled out um, secure attachment being the one that I've just mentioned. Um, where you have someone, a parent, who generally is able to meet your needs, be attuned, see what you need and can soothe you and support you to kind of move through the distress. So that enables the child to go out, explore the world, feel like they can be curious and playful, and when there's something scary or distressing, they can come back to their secure base and allow themselves to be soothed. Um, and so that that's, you know, what we all want for ourselves, isn't it really?
Flic Taylor :yeah, absolutely, and so you know it's interesting, isn't it? I was um, because I've been doing my own kind of journey with this and reading and research and whatever. And you know, is it fair to say that? You know, we're obviously aiming for secure attachment, but do many of us actually have it, or is this just my generation, claire?
Claire Plumbly :Well, yeah, so it depends on when you were, when you grew up, and the parenting standards and norms at the time, doesn't it? So they've moved on a lot. So the quick answer to your question I did actually just double check the stats beforehand because I couldn't remember off the top of my head what the numbers are, but what I read was approximately 55 to 65% of people have a secure attachment and whatever your remember these, just dominant attachments. There's so much to say here, kind of want to get it all out in one go.
Claire Plumbly :Um, bulby's original thesis was that the mother's bond, maternal bond, was the most important, and thinking has kind of updated a lot since then.
Claire Plumbly :It kind of actually that we have a lot of attachments in our lives and this emphasis on the mother is where we get all this mum guilt from.
Claire Plumbly :You know that it has to be the mum, and it's interesting because he, he was the one saying when, because his stuff was coming out all around the war, second world war, when a lot of children got sent off as evacuees, and he was the one saying um, I don't think under fives should be leaving their mums actually, because this could actually be more damaging.
Claire Plumbly :But nobody listened to him but yen. Then, after the war they all started to kind of perk up and listen because they were like oh, this actually suits us, that we need to get the women back to the home, not in the workplace they've had fun out there, but now they need to know their place. So it suits us to actually be promoting his work that it's the maternal bond that's most vital to our children's mental health, and so since then, obviously we've been trying to work to say, actually dads have very important attachments. Uncles, aunts, you know, teachers, we all kind of have a role there and supporting children and nurturing them. So I just want to add that because it all gets political, doesn't it, when they want to be.
Flic Taylor :Patriarchy slips in somewhere, doesn't it? Let's face it. But that's really interesting. That's such a good point you make, because when, maybe when you're initially thinking of attachment, you're thinking of your own kind of close knit family and then your own kind of families. But you're right, like you, you know, there's also kind of those lovely authoritative, nurturing, caring figures in our lives, whether they are, you know, teachers or coaches or whatever.
Claire Plumbly :Like you know, we're kind of like others in our lives too yeah, okay, so, um, so there's quite a few different bits to talk about in this. So maybe I could just say what the kids did, what the babies did in the experiment so you can get a sense. Okay, um, so with the avoidant the child would be okay, with the stranger, generally play, but when they, when um the parent left, there wasn't really a sign of distress in particular and they might not show any interest in the mother. When the mother returned, um, about 15 of the children had that kind of attachment. The other 15 of the insecure, was this um, anxious, preoccupied, and when the, when the mother left, they were intensely distressed and um showed a lot of fear of the stranger.
Claire Plumbly :And when the reunion happened, mother walked back in. They might really want and approach the mother but then would resist so they might be sat on her lap but kind of pushing her away or turning away and not kind of interacting with her. So you could see they kind of wanted the reunion but then didn't quite know how to reconnect um and there was a lot of more crying um than the other two, a lot less exploratory, curious behavior um than the other two. So that's kind of what they all displayed and I'm sure we can all think of children we know who've shown that kind of behavior. You know, if there's any parents listening and you're going to go around little children I mean some distress. Even the secure children would show a kind of a you know a kind of who are you kind of reaction to the strangers and might get distressed. But when there was the reunion they were able to be comforted. They would approach the mother, they'd be comforted and then they'd settle and go back off and explore.
Flic Taylor :So that was kind of what the secure children would do yeah, and I think it's really interesting to hear that because, you know, I think we all have childhood memories or of certain situations, and I certainly remember being asked why I did a certain thing, and it was when I was looking at this attachment file like, oh, that's why I did that click.
Flic Taylor :This is why it's so interesting to hear the studies of children, because then you're kind of looking at attachment things through different lenses and it helps you just, yeah, used to. You know, connect the dots up, doesn't it?
Claire Plumbly :and and what these researchers and psychologists were saying at the time was that this all makes sense because these are coping strategies to keep the union or the bond as close as they can for what the parent's able to give.
Claire Plumbly :So, for example, the child's, the children with the more avoidant, dismissive attachment styles have parents who might be kind of inconsistent with meeting their needs. They might be a bit dismissive or fail to see their needs. They might not be attuned. So the child might be searching for connection but it might be rejected or kind of downplayed as being important or relevant. Um, so you know, it made sense that the child would kind of not need the parent. It it doesn't matter if they're in the room or not, because they're not actually giving them as much. As you know, they crave and actually, even though they might not have looked distressed on the outside, what we know from other studies you know more recent times, is that the heart trace of a baby, even though they don't look distressed and aren't crying, actually does look the same as the distressed, visually distressed child.
Flic Taylor :Well, isn't it? I mean, we're talking about children here, but also, like how many adults do we know who who play out this too? Yeah?
Claire Plumbly :yeah, and, and that's the thing where a lot of these attachment um patterns will carry on into adult, because they're the dominant coping ways that we've learned. They worked. So why challenge them? And remember I use the word dominant there because what we've said about it being like maybe there was a primary caregiver, but we do have other people around us so we might, you know, interact with different individuals. They might kind of press different buttons in different ways. So it's helpful to think of this rather than a kind of a set in stone concrete. I have this, I have I don't have this.
Flic Taylor :Think of it more fluidly on continuums yes, exactly, I think as soon as we step into that pool, instantly you're kind of embracing the self-compassion piece and you know you're not kind of pointing fingers when we're, when we're talking about this, when you're exploring this.
Flic Taylor :This isn't pointing fingers or blaming people no, no exactly that understanding of yourself isn't it, and it's having that self-compassion for yourself and looking at your uh responses and your nervous system responses through a very different lens. And and you you know, obviously your book um talks a lot about nervous systems responses. This is why you're the perfect?
Claire Plumbly :yeah, because this all shapes your nervous system.
Claire Plumbly :You know, if you have somebody who is attuned and soothing you, your nervous system settles back into its green, ventral, vagal, parasympathetic nervous state, which is, you know where you can, then, you know, reset and go back out into the world, whereas if you're not having that and you're having to do, you know it takes a lot longer for everything to kind of come back down to that settled place.
Claire Plumbly :Um, so, yeah, it does.
Claire Plumbly :It does shape your nervous system early on, but the good news is that, whatever you, whatever has gone on early in your life, if you're doing this work and like even listen to a podcast like this, learning about this stuff, it offers you that opportunity kind of to begin, like you've just said, to understand what's going on and then use that as an opportunity for self compassion rather than being self-critical, which is where we tend to default to like, oh, I shouldn't have done that, I'm an idiot and and actually you know, oh, it makes sense, because that's they sounded really like they're my angry father when they said that and so I always wanted to retreat and that you know. So all of this really helps and, um, about 30% of people can well. The research into adult attachment from childhood attachment says about 30% go on to develop secure attachments. If you know from an insecure, if they work on it and update it and they seek out healthy relationships and they learn to pause before responding so they can update their own behaviours, you build that trust.
Flic Taylor :Oh that's fascinating, isn't it? Because that's another thing, like firsthand, I know that when you're kind of exploring your own reactions, your patterns, your you know, because obviously you're looking at, like you know, these behaviors, these traits where it's like the people pleasing and you just like abandoning your own needs, and then you kind of you know, follow the thread and you're thinking, actually I used to do this as a kid and you know it's so important, isn't it that?
Flic Taylor :uh, there is a self-compassion piece, but that knowledge and awareness, I feel like it's a key and you just put it in the lock and you're turning, like it just transforms the whole landscape yeah, yeah, totally, I agree.
Claire Plumbly :I think it's so powerful and yeah, and you can do a lot of work, you know, to learn about yourself now and you know following different people on Instagram and like there's so many good self-help books and so yeah, but, um, so what I was thinking was just to say something about what this means in adulthood.
Claire Plumbly :So if you're someone whose parents were a bit like that, a bit emotionally distant or remote, you know, and that could have been parents who, again, like you said not to use blaming language and I always say this to my clients as well because often parents are doing their best with the circumstances and understanding they've got of parenting, and a lot of parenting, you know, falls down not because of a. Obviously there is a small portion of parents who are deliberately neglectful or emotionally abusive and things, but a lot of parents, I think, were trying to do their best but had, you know, you know, being their culture, ideas or kind of parenting ideas or kind of pressure from their parents about, you know, working harder, not being the for their kids or putting too much emphasis on work and achievement, all of this will impact on their parenting.
Flic Taylor :Um, exactly, yeah they were brought up as well, claire, like I think that's a. Really that's something I've been thinking a lot about. Um, you know, kind of it. Obviously it depends on on your age and generation, whatever, but, like you know, your parents were brought up by parents who had just kind of come out of second world war. Like you know, there was just so much trauma that everyone is literally trying their best, but it doesn't mean we can't, kind of I, get you back to looking after yourself. It's not again. It's not that like do the work on yourself, but the minute I was like right, I'm gonna do the work on myself and do it with compassion, it just changes, doesn't it it's that lovely fluid, uh, fluidity that you talk about, as opposed to that black and white thinking that can yeah it can feel harsh, can't it?
Claire Plumbly :yeah, totally yeah. So so sorry I keep diverging off, but what this means in adulthood for a child who was more avoidant and dismissive is that they can become kind of hyper independent, so they kind of prefer to do everything themselves. And this, obviously, this can be a real strength, especially in our culture where there is an emphasis on you know, I did it by myself, miss. So we kind of internalise that and that can feel like Some amazing employees yeah, you can be like right, she'll sort it out, he'll sort it out, bye.
Claire Plumbly :Yes super reliable, they go and get the job done, yeah, yeah. But this can be coming rather from. It can be coming from a negative place. I suppose it can be because intimacy feels scary, or fear of being let down or abandoned, um, so it can come from that place which, um, yeah, is just um, makes it then difficult, because we can often hold people at arm's length.
Claire Plumbly :So those potentials for soothing, caring relationships that fill us up and provide that buffer to life stresses which protects us from burnout, we have fewer opportunities for those to kind of to let those people in um, yeah, um, and and also they, they're much more likely to ignore the signs of stress because they're so used to feeling stressed. You know they parent would leave the room, they're stressed, and that didn't benefit them to show that because they might be, you know, told, don't be silly, or that's not, it's not a proper thing to be upset about. And so they got used to kind of going well, my needs get further invalidated, so I'm just not not going to show those needs. And over time you can go really misattuned like what are my needs? I don't do I have needs. Like, is this stress?
Flic Taylor :this is normal, like, so all of this is in there, you see it's crazy how young you can learn to emotionally monitor a situation, isn't it? And how that becomes so comfortable. And then you know, as an adult, it's your superpower and it is praised. Then you know you're never meeting your own needs. And would you look at that, your burnout?
Claire Plumbly :you know exactly, yeah yeah, yeah, and that's a big part of burnout, isn't it in fact a lot of the models of burnout that in my book I talk about the five um stage model. It talks about kind of onset of stress, chronic stress, and then you're into burnout and that's often we're overriding all the signs and if someone isn't attuned to them it just tips very kind of quickly down that stage pathway and often you know a lot of people who are avoidant of people. Their relationship with themselves and and avoidance of their own emotions will mean they will cope by further working. Work is a very nice, easy, quick avoidance strategy, isn't it? Because you're busy, you're not feeling and thinking, so you kind of then become. It becomes a bit of a vicious cycle where you're kind of in pain, disconnected.
Flic Taylor :Do more work do more work, because that's that's where you get your worth, that's where you feel your worth, and so it does it. You know it falsely fills up a cup, but that cup don't fill that one up.
Claire Plumbly :I've tried it, don't do it, don't do it but yes, yeah yeah um and the other bit um around this attachment style is have you heard of the phrase insecure striving? And it's? I mean, it does what it says on the tin really. But it's that idea that we strive, but it's coming from an insecure place.
Claire Plumbly :So often in insecure attachment, avoidant, dismissive attachment, the insecure striving is around avoiding um feeling inferior, because that's what that pain has happened we've already been made to feel inferior or abandoned, and so there's a kind of um leaning towards the perfectionism because of that striving always needing to, you know, be the best in order to not be put down and knocked down. So there's a kind of a trend with this attachment style and perfectionism to kind of overlap quite a lot. So perfectionism is essentially in well, unhealthy perfectionism, because obviously perfectionism can also come from a healthy place, like people want to do a good job, but if it's unhealthy, where you're, you don't ever stop, even when you know you've you've done enough um, then that is potentially being fueled by this insecure striving yeah, it's that desperate need to just, uh, I guess, feel safe.
Flic Taylor :Your nervous system, yeah, yeah, it's just, yeah, a very distorted experience of it, you know. But as you say, if you've grown up and you've been doing this from a young age, then you don't even see that. Do you, claire, like?
Claire Plumbly :yeah, and a lot of the kind of experiences that lead to this were so normal that often you know, when you're in therapy and you're trying to explore someone's childhood, often people come because of this thing in the present. You know, often it's the straw that's broken, the camel's back. It'll be something. I mean not necessarily it could be a big event that even anybody looking on would agree is distressing, but it's not. It's very rarely just that event. There's a whole backstory and we need to explore that backstory. When you're piecing together someone's background and understanding, you know the norms and roles in the family of everybody and how everybody interacted with each other and emotions, and you're kind of developing this picture and supporting someone to see that actually maybe there were some unmet needs, because insecure attachment is about unmet needs, um and I think it's um, it's you actually claire?
Flic Taylor :you can tell? But I feel like is it fairly typical that you have an attachment? You kind of create this attachment style. Maybe you're choosing to work for a certain organisation where that boss is very similar?
Claire Plumbly :Can that happen?
Claire Plumbly :Yeah, totally, because it's familiar and so our, our styles are just the coping patterns and our coping patterns we know will work because we're familiar with this.
Claire Plumbly :So when someone's cold and rejecting, it's like, well, that's okay, because I'm independent and actually, you know, I have worked with people who have been avoidant or dismissive. But in a relationship with someone who is maybe anxious and preoccupied attachment style, and that could be really hard because this person, the anxious, um, preoccupied person, is really kind of seeking a lot of extra. They're the ones who were distressed when they left, but the um avoidant person wants some time, wants more time on their own. So this can be kind of quite a bit of work to support each other. And it's the same at work. You know, if you have, say, a boss who's maybe avoidant, dismissive, you know, work their way up the ladder kind of done quite well because their perfectionism, you know, is fueled kind of quick growth, and then you've got somebody who is looking to them for guidance and role model and support, maybe not getting it, this can really, you know, be triggering for both people.
Claire Plumbly :This you know, boss might think they're too needy and the person who's looking for the support kind of feels like dismissed and like anxious all the time. So yeah, it impacts everything, all the different relationships, and it's worthwhile thinking, you know, if I'm having trouble with a person in my life, a friend, a colleague, you know, is it worthwhile just pausing, going? Okay, is there something, my attachment style being triggered by something? Maybe what you know? We don't know everyone's backstory. Quite often people are quite private, especially avoidant people who might not go around talking about everything. But you know, there'll be stuff probably in someone's backstory we don't fully know and that could be impacting on how they're behaving. It's not just about the situation in the here and now.
Flic Taylor :Yeah, and I feel that you know people who burn out. They're very hard on themselves, very hard on themselves. There's that very harsh inner critic. It's um, you know, and you can often be in that situation where you know you're, you're hearing, you're using the language that maybe you've grown up with, or whatever, and as soon as you say you're needy, I kind of went because oh did you yeah, because it's you know, you're kind of like, oh my God, get on with it, don't be needy.
Flic Taylor :But actually we're not allowed to have needs and kind of seek help to soothe those needs. We try and soothe those needs ourselves, but we're also completely it's healthy You're entitled to kind of those in your circle to help you meet those needs. And it's interesting, isn't it, claire? Like this is where I'm like oh, it opens up the landscape so much. And I think it's fair to say, when you're doing this work, um again, which is why it's lovely to be supported by a professional, someone who can kind of guide you through it. It's quite typical to kind of look at your circle and go, okay, I've grown and changed through this experience, through this healing journey. Maybe this circle doesn't necessarily reflect where I want yeah, in the future.
Claire Plumbly :I think that's. I think that's really important. I've um had some of those thoughts about my own in my own personal life recently as well, and it's quite hard, isn't it? Because then it's like oh, this is like turning life upside down. What does this mean for me?
Flic Taylor :it is. And you know, when you've kind of grown up with that harsh inner critic, you can very be kind of go down the road of like oh my god, what's wrong with you? Like don't be so ridiculous, don't be so mean, don't be where. Actually the most self-compassionate thing you can do for that moment is go. Actually, who, who do I deserve to have in my circle?
Claire Plumbly :like I, you know that's nice with putting it, yes who?
Flic Taylor :who needs to be here? And fills me up who fills me up, claire? Yeah, who fills me up? But I understand and I appreciate that takes time. It's. It's not just flick the light switch and it all changes. It's.
Claire Plumbly :It's, you know, it's a transition, it's a journey and and, but also thinking about what it means for your boundaries, because I think when people do this work, they might realize that some of what they've been doing um, particularly the next one, anxious, preoccupied I'm about to talk about, because this is more people pleasers but, but actually, but just just to before we move on.
Claire Plumbly :I don't want everybody listening to go. I've got to turf all my friendships out and get some new ones, because it might be I'm sure they won't but, um, you know they might need to think about. I want to nurture these friendships but I need to change something about myself and I need to see if they'd be willing to meet me halfway, because this is gonna be fresh for us fresh ground.
Flic Taylor :Yeah, because those people have not been used to choosing themselves ever so you know, often, I think, when we start to change inside, that's reflected outside of us too. Yeah, and I think absolutely we're not saying, right cut, you're gone, you're gone, you're gone. We're not doing that, but I think some really lovely, powerful conversations can unfold with those that are in your circle from this work.
Claire Plumbly :Yeah, yeah lovely, I fly on the wall for these conversations. Everyone's gonna have these powerful conversations cheering you on very loudly okay, so what's the?
Claire Plumbly :next right what's so anxious and preoccupied, um, so this was when the child, remember, showed intense distress when the parent left and then found it hard to be comforted, might resist, resist it. So it's like compassion flowing in. There's like a barrier that just allows it in, um, so somebody with this kind of attachment, attachment style, might have had a caregiver who, uh, primary caregiver, who really struggled to meet their needs, um, dependent, dependably. So they might have given, given mixed messages when the child was distressed. Sometimes they might have been there and other times not, or they might have felt unable to soothe them, maybe because they were so anxious or dysregulated themselves, maybe they were overprotective, very kind of worry, like a worrying kind of parent, um, and so the child has kind of picked up that my parents very anxious, so maybe the world's a place that you know they can't protect me from and it's a scary place. So understandable then that they would have this attachment style, yeah, um. So in adulthood, what does this mean? It means that they might be sensitive to the needs of others, very attuned, um, a sense of kind of higher responsibility for the well-being of others. You're not doing like, yeah, um, you might find it hard to soothe yourself because of that dysregulation, not having had the practice of someone helping you like you know they're there. This is scary, but it will pass.
Claire Plumbly :If your parent was going yeah, this is really scary you would have ended up in that frazzled state all the time. Um, you might also be kind of hyper responsive to problems, wanting to sort them out. You know scary email drops in your box. You gotta fix it straight away. You can't tolerate, you know, sitting through the problem, um, and so reassurance seeking would be part of this, an urgency to fix.
Claire Plumbly :And then the insecure striving element of this, um is the people pleasing. So instead, so they, they want to be seen well in the eyes of others. So the insecure striving is making sure that relationship is always kind of I'm well thought of and others are happy and okay, um, so it kind of obviously people pleasing again can come from a nice place to fit. Now I just I want everybody to kind of enjoy getting on, but not at the expense of me, whereas a people pleaser, where it's gone too down an unhealthy route, would be thinking my needs aren't important, I need to make sure other people are okay, um, and that's the most important thing. So so it depends your self-worth, then depends on it yeah.
Flic Taylor :I mean, how many people are like oh, I'd rather it take a chunk out of me than them. I can deal with it, take me, I can't. I can't deal with it taking a chunk out of them. Yeah, oh, my goodness so you know what?
Claire Plumbly :actually there is a fourth attachment, and the reason I haven't thought to mention it yet is because Mary Ainsworth's work only kind of pulled out those first three secure, and then insecure, avoidant, insecure, anxious. The last one came through work about 10 years later or so, um set of psychologists and this was um called disorganized attachment. So really these people um have had an experience quite scary parenting, um, you know, parents who are very chaotic and really weren't consistent, were really inconsistent or abusive, and so, um, it's not like the other attachments where there's a consistency and a pattern that makes sense. The the pattern is that the pattern is chaotic.
Claire Plumbly :So in therapy, um, what you might, what I might notice is and this is helpful to know, because you will obviously come across people like this, like I might be idolized, for example, um as being like the person who's going to save them, and then I do something and suddenly I'm the worst person in the world. So there's this kind of like save me, I want you move towards you. There's in like moving kind of towards closeness and then it's too intense, you're letting me down, I can't trust you. So you kind of want the intimacy, but it's scary and frightening and I don't know what to do with it, um, and so, yeah, this push-pull pattern.
Claire Plumbly :I'm pretty sure, you know, people listening to this will have had some experience of feeling like there's a bizarre pattern here. I don't understand what this person's about, and it could be this disorganized attachment kind of pattern, um, and so you know, again, in terms of burnout it's, it's more of that kind of fear of abandonment, trying to do your best. You know, people can protect themselves by trying to achieve really good qualification, like multiple qualifications or multiple kind of moving up promotions, um, and trying to keep themselves at arm's length. Then, you know it's, it's similar to the insecure, really, um, but it's worth just mentioning that there is that extra one perfect, perfect.
Flic Taylor :Oh, good to know claire. Thank you um it.
Claire Plumbly :Also, if people are curious about this, you can just google adult attachment questionnaire and have a look online. Um, you can do kind of self report questionnaires so that you can begin to understand your own attachment style. So, yes, read up on it like learn more about it. But you know there's the adult attachment scale, adult attachment questionnaire and they're freely available online oh, amazing.
Flic Taylor :I'll put the links in the show notes then, so people can just click it yeah, okay it's just so good for when you're looking at yourself, but also when you're trying to understand other people. It can help. Yeah, you know. Yeah, claire, is it possible to have a foot in each of the pools of these attachments, or or do you find you tend to? Yeah?
Claire Plumbly :okay, well, like, yeah, yeah, because there's bits I definitely resonate with, different bits of each and um, different people in my life, you know, would have behaved differently towards me.
Claire Plumbly :And it's interesting because, you know, my mum told a story the other day, um, which I'd heard before, but I suppose I've been, like you know, writing my book.
Claire Plumbly :I'd done this chapter on, so I've gone more deep into it again as a, you know, 15 years after first learning about it, um, and it was, you know, when she was I think I was not very many weeks old, maybe, I don't know, two months old or something she'd gone back to work, she was a night nurse and then I'd woken in the night needing a feed and my dad couldn't kind of soothe me and I obviously needed, you know, a bit more comforting and so for hours couldn't kind of comfort me and took me in and my mum had to stop work and went behind a curtain to feed me.
Claire Plumbly :And I was thinking that's interesting, because that story has been rolled out a few times, and just like interesting that she felt this kind of compulsion to go back to work quite quickly. Compulsion to go back to work quite quickly, um, and there were times when she was being then sent home because I I needed her and she wasn't there and my dad was struggling to manage and he he does find, you know, managing his own emotions quite tricky as an adult. So I'm wondering how he would have coped with an overwhelming little first baby yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Flic Taylor :And I'm just thinking for those listening to this um, you know who are parents and who are thinking, oh my god, like when, I was that young mum.
Flic Taylor :I really struggled to do this. I guess I'm just very mindful that they may be feeling incredibly, you know, uh, uneasy, guilty of a certain situation. You know how parents I do this all the time. I'm always going, oh my god, did I really fuck that up? And my kids are always going, oh my god, you didn't. And I don't even remember that. But you kind of, as a parent, think, oh, but yeah, it's really important that, as you said that that what was it? 30% of us can transition from an attachment therapy to a secure place.
Claire Plumbly :Yeah, absolutely. And also hold in mind that you've probably heard of the good enough parenting kind of idea that you know if you're getting it right 80% of the time. That's the bigger picture. And the people who I often end up working with in therapy where you know there's been deep attachment wounds this is a tap. If you've heard of attachment trauma, this is what we're talking about. You know this is when consistently unmet needs were happening. Um, then, then the child develops. You know their coping behaviors, whereas if it's a one-off every so often, you know their coping behaviours, whereas if it's a one off every so often, the system can cope with that and you know it's upsetting, but usually they they're more likely to be remembered easily as well because they happened once or twice, whereas if it happened a lot, you know. When you're working someone therapy, it's like oh, which one do we go to? Because it happened all the time. This was my, this was my normal.
Flic Taylor :Yes, yes, exactly. So when we kind of, you know, explore the attachment styles, we might be kind of identifying with one more dominant than the other, or you know a couple how do we then move forward? How do we then support ourselves to kind of step closer to establishing those secure attachment styles?
Claire Plumbly :So this is where therapeutic skills like practicing your mindfulness is really helpful and your compassionate mind exercises, where you're learning those kind of skills to light up the attachment pathway. So we have in humans this social engagement system because we're born to attach, we're born with the capacity to attach, so babies are drawn to faces, for example in patterns, and you know their little heads will turn at the sound of a voice. Like this is all in us from the word go, um, and that stays with us into adulthood. Um, so we kind of got this inbuilt capacity for attachment and, um, we, if we haven't learned those skills in childhood and we need to, kind of we have some awareness of that you can learn skills in anything you know learn the piano, learn japanese. You can learn how to develop your self-compassion, which is your attachment to yourself at any age.
Claire Plumbly :So I'd say, focus on this first, focus on your self-attachment. Right, sorry, and I've got my hands over my heart right now, and that's because this is where, like, this top area is really important for that embodied feeling which takes time. So when you first start practicing compassion, um, a lot of people say I don't feel it, I'm just going through the ropes, it doesn't it's water off a duck's back?
Claire Plumbly :I don't really kind of so people who say that are usually the people who need it most. Um, and so a lot of compassionate mind training or compassion focused therapy. It's the same model. Um is about literally practicing these skills regularly, because this develops the right pathways. And then, you know, it uses things like breath work, visualizations, um, calm hands over your heart and like kind of all these kind of practices that are about embodying that feeling, and then you can apply that when you have difficulties in your everyday life. You know, when someone does say something you know upsetting to you, you can kind of come back into soothing yourself because you've developed those attachment pathways which holds that soothing ability, um, and you can then make a measured decision before you react.
Claire Plumbly :Um, so you know, for anyone who's listening to this, thinking I could do with doing this. You know this is absolutely. You know, for anyone who's listening to this, thinking I could do with doing this. You know this is absolutely. It could be done in a group format you could see if there's anyone locally doing a group to you or online it could be done in therapy. You know there was also a compassionate mind app with a course, which is a really good option. So these are all things, and I talk about this in my book as well. I I focus quite a bit the second half of my book on how to develop compassion, um, in relation to burnout. So it's not you know the full works, but it's certainly kind of giving people a bit of an overview. Um, yeah, so I'm talking at you quite a lot suddenly passionate about this.
Flic Taylor :It's such a good question, I am soaking it up, I'm loving it. I'm like got like 50 questions firing out because I just, um, you know, when you're talking about that, that kind of work, it's very different. It's got a very different energy, hasn't it, claire, to being self-soothing, to being hyper independent and like I've've got this, I'm. I will deal with this because you know that's when we kind of go for those numbing activities, as opposed to self soothing, it's a very calm, loving, compassionate energy, isn't it?
Claire Plumbly :And part of compassion work is not just to soothe away the bad emotions is to tune into what they're trying to tell you, so you know if we're feeling upset or angry, rather than just being a big like mess of unpleasant feeling it's going okay. What is this feeling? What is it trying to tell me? What's the message here? Oh, okay, it's telling me that, um, I don't want to really be doing this thing, or you know that I'm exhausted and I need to listen to that. So you know it might it self compassion. It's important to differentiate between the soothing element and the kind of doing things. You know for the long term that might be good for us, but might mean kind of listening to the emotion, then acting on it in a way that's not just numbing and avoiding um yeah, I love that.
Flic Taylor :I love that, and I feel like as soon as we start to really kind of nurture ourselves, you know kind of build this toolkit, it then becomes so much easier, doesn't it, claire? To you know, put those boundaries very lovingly in place with others.
Claire Plumbly :Yeah, in your life, yeah, yeah. So that's the next part of that. The answer to that question like, once you've got, once you've worked on yourself how you can change your attachment with others can then flow from that because you know, you're, you're, you've, you've got that understanding, you've got that capacity to soothe yourself already. So you don't, you know, then it means that the anxious, preoccupied people don't just need to rely on others and like, constantly reassurance seeking, and it means that the avoidant, dismissive people might start to let others in. You know, like, just, it's about just trying to change what. What do you normally do if you normally hold people at arm's length to the point that you know they don't really know you and you've not really got much of a? Um, you know a deep kind of meaningful connection. It's finding someone. You could think, okay, what? What if I just did something a little different here? What if I kind of let them know a little bit more about how I'm thinking about a situation?
Flic Taylor :or you know my opinion on something, or what if I was to ask them to you know, um, pick my kids up and drop them home from school, or you know just something a little more than you would normally allow them in and um this begins to, you know, foster that change and and that's, you know, the start of it oh, I love it because, again it's, it's that there's that fluidity, there's that that lovely expansion element to it, as opposed to, you know, when I've spoken to people, whether it's regarding a relationship breakdown, a friendship breakdown, you know, people start to talk a little bit more about, you know, friendships breaking down and the grief of that, whether it's, you know, deciding to leave a workplace we can often go to the place of it has to be very kind of dramatic and blunt and I'm like, hang on a minute.
Flic Taylor :Why can't it be good? Why can't it come, you know, kind of unfold in a very loving way, why can't it be a place of you know, oh, I've just kind of grown and I'm changing, but that doesn't mean, you know, what we, we had together, was amazing and we still have this love for each other.
Flic Taylor :But actually I'm gonna go this way, you know yeah it's interesting how we um, you know that message out there can feel very, I don't know, just heavy, sticky, toxic, like just it's black or white. Well, it doesn't have to be that way.
Claire Plumbly :I think that's why, sometimes, um, psychologists can be a bit frustrating, because we are often caveating our answers with well, it's kind of like this, but hold in mind that it's all this as well. Um, so we make terrible politicians where who are just like it's this, um, yeah, oh, fantastic, fantastic, oh my goodness.
Flic Taylor :Oh, and so when you come out the other side, when you're doing this work and you've kind of you know, you've done the inner work on yourself you're looking at your relationships that circle around you. When you step into that doorway, you, when you step in that doorway, like, oh my goodness, I truly feel, you know, stepping back into burnout becomes impossible. That's a big fear.
Claire Plumbly :When I talk to people.
Flic Taylor :It was my own fear, like oh my god, never do that again when you do this work.
Claire Plumbly :Yeah it just well, you've got it's kind of like you're, you're buffered, you know, with that, you know people can function with all attachment styles.
Claire Plumbly :Attachment styles are I don't want to demonize, you know people listening to this thinking you know I'm doomed if I've got a dominant attachment style, um, because these are just coping mechanisms.
Claire Plumbly :But if you can like, do work to understand your reactions, know where they're coming from and separate out in the moment what could be old stuff here, what could be related to this actual person in this situation, then it means in the moment you're informed and making a decision based on that. So it means you might break those patterns of, you know, perfectionism, people pleasing or just using busyness to avoid emotions, which, um, these are the three dominant patterns I talk about in my book because I think those are really important patterns I see a lot in people, um, but you're more informed, you can make a decision like, actually, is this what I need right now? What? So it's kind of like the ready break man, you know, having this knowledge, like is that like little glow around you protecting you so that you can things bounce off a little bit and you're not just so vulnerable to everything coming at you all the time?
Flic Taylor :yeah, absolutely. And it's interesting, isn't it, because when you've been burning out, you've usually for years have been operating on such a heightened nervous system and that when you start to step into operating from, kind of, you know, a calmer nervous system, you're like oh my God, life is so much different.
Claire Plumbly :Yeah, but you're not just crashing from one thing to another, are you? You're kind of like, yeah, it's more measured, and nice, nicer, that's more measured, and nice, nicer, that's a very bland word.
Flic Taylor :No, but like there's no. Nothing tastes better to me than actually being at peace with yourself and comfortable in your own skin and actually loving yourself, because when you spent years you could be, you know, in the complete opposite state. This is nice you know, yeah.
Claire Plumbly :Well, you're aligned, then, with your values, and I'm. It must have been. Which job was it when you feel like you really crashed and burned?
Flic Taylor :um, it was it. Ironically, it was the mental health writing. But I have to say now I was there, okay, but now I've done the work, because that was my big thing. I was like, oh my god, how did I burn out doing this when I used to do palliative pediatric? But like, oh my, but now I've done the work there. I see, um, there are so many other factors at play and this, this was probably building up for many years and, um, I always feel cautious of this, saying this, but like it was an absolute gift to be like you're being so yeah, right.
Claire Plumbly :So it was the the point at which you were able to go right now. Making significant changes to my life like this has been like the big turning point. So, yeah, the latter part of my book I call that post-burnout growth, because we talk about post-traumatic growth in the trauma world, which is when you've had a trauma and there's growth from it because you've been open and willing to consider your beliefs and behaviors and put more emphasis on the things you know, your values and relationships, and I think this happens sometimes in burnout. That's when the proper changes might then take place, and I think a lot of people can find it hard to. They might make little tweaks, but not enough, and then, when they crash and burn, they see what their actual limits are.
Claire Plumbly :You know, I'm a human, I'm infallible. I'm not infallible. I can. I have a breaking point. It's's quite a shock, so it shatters your beliefs about yourself and about the world. But that is the point at which you can kind of pick the piece up and go, but I'm not putting them back together as they were yes, because your coping mechanisms have to change.
Flic Taylor :But also you talk about the, your cause and values and you almost kind of go hang on a minute. When I was a kid, I was really playful. I was this, this and this, and then I became an adult and then this boss told me I was, you know, too smiley. Your problem is that you smile too much. Now it honestly is that something you told? Yeah, it's not ridiculous, literally, she said in front of all the other staff you know what your problem is you smile too much. People who smile too much are quite stupid. Now listen, we're having this chat. Now we know that person.
Flic Taylor :There clearly was a lot going on in their life. But when you've been told as a kid you're too much, calm down, like you know, oh yeah, and then you start these things. They kind of, I guess, they leave an imprint and so when you you reach a point where you're like crash, you're like okay, there's nothing wrong with having energy and wanting to put good in the world. So I don't need you in my soul and I don't need you know. But that's the work. Yeah, and not everyone's situation is going to be.
Claire Plumbly :Yeah, but yeah no, but it's interesting, isn't it? Like you're, you're, yeah, you were. It sounds like a bit of neglect. Well, at burnout, because there's different subtypes about where you weren't really aligned with your values, and because you're, you really bring such a wonderful energy that I know a lot of people really drawn to and benefit from. So now, working for yourself, you found the right balance of, like, how much you work, but also you can invite people in and have these kind of conversations to people who feed your energy and benefit from it. And yes, absolutely.
Flic Taylor :And, to be honest, claire, like it's made a huge difference. Um, you know, because I get pitched a lot of people and guests and stuff and I really do follow my intuition and be like, no, I don't think, I don't think we're kind of, you know the same vibe and so I think why these conversations are so popular and doing so well out there. You know, people binge, listen to them and then they share them with their friends and the feedback is beautiful, but it's because I'm staying aligned to who I am. Yes, you know, and it's okay, I'm not meant to be for everyone, but I'm no longer going. Oh, my god, I need to sit in the box and be quiet.
Claire Plumbly :Yes, yeah, or I need to try and be for everyone, like that's definitely a big shift then, isn't it?
Flic Taylor :yeah, yes, yeah so, oh my gosh claire, I could talk to you all day about this. This has been good, it's been good, oh my gosh this is just the tip of the iceberg. Um now, before we end, I do oh yeah, and there's a little bit.
Claire Plumbly :I love your quest. This is your little questions, isn't it? I love it. No, well, I'm gonna do the questions, but I'm also I want more on your book come on oh right, okay, sorry, okay, yeah, all right, uh, oh, what to tell um? There's two titles, depending on where you are the world, if you're in the uk or the us okay, right, give us both okay, so the us one will come out, uh, at the end of this year.
Claire Plumbly :It's called the trauma of burnout um that was the working title, because it kind of marries up my expertise in trauma, because I use trauma therapies. You know, emdr, for example, is one of my kind of mainstays, um, and and the burnout and anxiety kind of aspect of my work. And then, kind of talking to my editors over here, they were like oh, it's kind of like quite a heavy title. I was like okay, and so they were like how about just burn out? And then, like we focus on the subtitle, which is how to manage your nervous system before it manages you. I was like okay, I can go with that.
Claire Plumbly :So yeah, so that's the UK one is, is that? And then the other one is the trauma burnout um, but it's the same content inside and, yeah, we've had fun. They did some nice book covers for me and there's they've both got different like looks. But the UK one has a really cool burn hole in the o which looks it's not. Obviously it doesn't, isn't it I? I said I loved it because I would want to pick it up in the shop and check it's not actually got a hole and it is how you feel in burnout, isn't it really hollow and empty? And so it does look like that on the book um. So yeah, so it's, it's available. I'd love it if people want to buy and you're in it. You're in the resources at the back as a podcast. People need to go and listen to um. So yeah, amazing.
Flic Taylor :I can't wait to read it because, um, I just love, uh, your messaging. I love the energy of your messaging. You've always been. I've been following you for maybe a couple of years now on instagram. Yeah, you've been on my radar for some you just have this lovely gentle energy, claire, and I think when you've been burning out you, you know you're hard on yourself and we almost need to tap into those people because it helps model how you know to to bring that internal narrative, to make it a lot kinder and nicer to ourselves.
Flic Taylor :So it's amazing. Thank you for everything you do.
Claire Plumbly :It's incredible, oh thank you, I really appreciate it and I appreciate this community you're building. I think it's really really helpful and I like, yeah, the light touch to it as well that you bring, because it's what people need. They've often been too serious, been insecure, striving, so I'm pretty sure you're an attachment figure, developing a bit of an attachment figure kind of for people, because you know the warmth in your voice all of these is what engages the social attachment kind of chemistry in us. So, um, they're all really important bits of work for people absolutely well.
Flic Taylor :Thank you, claire right. Okay, darling, at the end of every episode, because I find this fascinating oh yeah, it's so different and you know what we probably all answer differently at certain times as well. But anyway, I always, I guess, these quick fire, light-hearted questions. So, on your dodgy days, do you opt for move your body or move the remote?
Claire Plumbly :and I was thinking like this. I was like, oh, what does dodgy mean I was going into? That annoying psychologist does touch you. So after a clinic, when I'm like so after a heavy clinic, um, I arrive home and I I look a bit dead-eyed, I have to have a big cup of tea. I usually sit looking out just at the trees for a bit and then, yeah, I might go and watch a bit of bridgeton or something like easy with a guinea pig on my lap. I like to have a guinea pig on my lap um guinea pigs yeah, and they're just.
Claire Plumbly :They kind of make a cute noise when you hold and stroke them. Um, so that's yeah, but after, if I'm like a bit more agitated and not so much tired and like drained, but more like oh, this thing's happened, then it would be like I need to move to get the energy out, and typically it would be, you know, if I'm at home with the kids. It might be something that's practical, like cleaning I feel like it sounds a bit sad but just a vigorous clean that gets it all out, so like the windows are sparkling and my husband's like you had a bad day out of my body and the windows are amazing, sparkly yeah, or toothbrush in the like ground, uh, yeah, so that that's that answer interesting.
Flic Taylor :Okay, like bag of almonds or bag of maltesers I mean, you know, chocolate is a big favorite.
Claire Plumbly :Um, was this on a bad day as well? Was this just any day?
Flic Taylor :wow, that's on a bad day.
Claire Plumbly :Um, yeah, I mean we, we recently, like I've been reading a book ultra processed people. It's really good if you read it it's worthwhile. I read. Anyway, I've been trying to buy, uh, make my own trail mix because I I feel like, and if I put that in the cupboard where the biscuits are kept, it feels it like increases the friction to the biscuits.
Flic Taylor :You know um, but yeah, chocolate is definitely a oh, no a big win in my no, sometimes it just hits the spot, doesn't it okay ask for help or happy to hermit.
Claire Plumbly :I'm pretty good at asking for help. I guess that's a good sign. Um, yeah, I would typically especially like, if I don't say anything, usually it's because I'm not haven't quite got, uh, the words for it, or I'm kind of trying to work out what the problem is. You know, when you're kind of quite not quite there with, like I'm bothered by something but I haven't quite coherently got a narrative around it yet, but my husband will still pick up that something's wrong. And so, yeah, normally I kind of even like small things. I'm like oh, how would you do this? Yeah, just reply like this okay, yeah, okay so yeah, amazing, amazing.
Flic Taylor :Yes, it's the way forward, isn't it now? What's the one self-compassion thing you're going to do for yourself today that your future self will thank you for?
Claire Plumbly :well, earlier I went for a massage which only happens like once a year, so does that count? It was like proper, not central um.
Flic Taylor :I got a voucher for my birthday.
Claire Plumbly :Sorry, you've been writing well, you know. Yeah, exactly like this. Yeah, I got a voucher for my birthday. My birthday's just gone, like a couple of days ago, but this was a voucher from last year's birthday, so I did use it. But I had five pounds left and I was like they said you know, you need to use it within the year, so they let me go over a couple of days. So I went and did that and that was, yeah, that was good. I was feeling it. I was kind of like some of it was nice and some was like, oh my gosh, those knots must be pretty intense, but I know I need it because that's the sign so, yeah, oh, well done, well done.
Flic Taylor :Oh, my goodness, claire, I'm going to put in the show notes where everyone can find you and links to your books and stuff and obviously we'll put, you know, links to what we talked about today. But I just want to say like a whopping big thank you for this because it's uh, I know, when I certainly came across the attachment style theory and I was, like you know, working through it, it was really helpful for me looking at my burnout. So I just know that this is going to be one of those episodes that people message me and say I've sent it to 20 friends, you know.
Flic Taylor :I just I can't wait for more people to find your work, but thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and helping.
Claire Plumbly :Thanks for having me so thank you thank you. Thank you.
Flic Taylor :Thank you, flick. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Everyday Burnout Conversations. Take a peek at the show notes for any links to items discussed today. And if you want to continue the burnout conversation, you can find me on social media at FlickTaylorWrites, or you can head to my website, fl flicktaylorcom if you're curious and want to learn more on what it's like to work with me one-to-one. So in the meantime, rest up, don't forget to take good care of you, and bye for now. You.