Everyday Burnout Conversations
Everyday burnout conversations is an honest podcast sharing the burnout experiences of others from all walks of life. Host, Flic Taylor, is a writer whose passion for burnout arose when she became a mental health writer dealing with severe burnout - and yes, the irony is not lost on her! Enjoy these weekly conversations sharing stories of surviving and thriving, all delightfully wrapped up in epic truths, compassion, and humour.
Everyday Burnout Conversations
Andrea Anderson | Navigating autistic burnout, unveiling neurodiversity and the path to self-acceptance
In this everyday burnout conversation, I sit down to chat with the fabulous Andrea Anderson.
Andrea is a late discovered Autistic woman on a mission to help create environments for neurodivergence to belong.
Andrea has experienced burnout during her 10+ years of working in fast-paced and growing fashioninesses such as Topshop, Topman, and digital bus and ASOS. She is now a remarkable writer, neurodivergent educator and certified professional coach.
Amidst stories of managing multiple burnouts and advocating for self-care, Andrea and I discuss the life-changing and enlightening path of her seeking a neurodiversity diagnosis at the age of 45 - a discovery that has fired her up to change the narrative to “we’re different, not difficult”.
Andrea helps illuminate this journey, which is rife with biases and the all-too-narrow medical model that often fails to recognise the strengths and capabilities inherent in neurodivergent individuals.
We go on to peel back the layers of societal pressures and a compulsion to conform with the hidden cost on people’s wellbeing, especially on neurodivergent individuals. Her insights on the corporate world's often narrow view of employee well-being lead us to discuss the role of self-compassion and the importance of the tribe we find—or create—along the way.
Join us for this intimate conversation on self-discovery and a celebration of the joys of finding true belonging within ourselves.
More about Andrea and her work
Andrea educates and advocates for neurodivergence through her writing and forthcoming book, in addition to her work with businesses and institutions that are ready to accept neurodivergence and remove barriers for neurodivergent humans to thrive.
Andrea's debut book, This is Who I am… the autistic woman's creative guide to belonging, is set for release this Summer, wherre she dives deep into the raw reactions and difficult emotions that surface when uncovering an unknown difference in yourself.
Andrea’s Website
Andrea’s Instagram
Andrea’s Facebook
The Late Discovered Club Podcast with Catherine Aster
Please note, this podcast is not intended as medical advice. If you're having a rough time or concerned that you're experiencing burnout, remember YOU matter, so please reach out to your doctor or mental health professional for support and guidance tailored for you.
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Check out my latest work and discover how you can work one-to-one with me to tackle your burnout at flictaylor.com
Hello, I'm Flick and you're listening to Everyday Burnout Conversations. This is the honest podcast that shares burnout expertise, along with the stories of others from all walks of life that strive to inspire and help you manage and avoid burnout. Now, my passion for burnout and self-care came about when I became a mental health writer who'd lost her own mental health to severe burnout, and it's an irony that's not lost on me. So get set to enjoy another great conversation, delightfully wrapped up in some wisdom, humour and great storytelling. Enjoy.
Speaker 1:In today's Everyday Burnout Conversation, I sit down to chat with the fabulous Andrea Anderson. Andrea is a late discovered autistic woman on a mission to help create environments for neurodivergence to belong. Having experienced many bouts of burnout during her 10 plus years of working in the fast-paced, growing fashion and digital businesses such as Topshop, topman and ASOS, andrea is now a remarkable writer. She's a neurodivergent educator and certified professional coach. Amidst the stories of managing multiple burnouts and advocating for self-care, andrea and I discuss the life-changing and enlightening path of her seeking a neurodiversity diagnosis at the age of 45. A discovery that's fired her up to change the narrative to were different, not difficult. Andrea helps shine a light on this journey that's rife with biases, and the all too narrow medical model often fails to recognise the strengths and capabilities inherent in neurodivergent individuals. We go on to peel back the layers of societal pressures and the compulsion to conform with the hidden cost on people's wellbeing, especially on neurodivergent individuals. Her insights on the corporate world's often narrow view of employee wellbeing leads us to discuss the role of self-compassion and the importance of the tribe we find or create along the way.
Speaker 1:Andrea's debut book, this Is who I Am the Autist Guide to Belonging, is set for release this summer. Can't wait. In it, she's going to dive deep into the raw reactions and difficult emotions that surface when uncovering an unknown difference in yourself. So join us for this intimate conversation on self-discovery and the celebration of the joys of finding true belonging within ourselves. Oh, and, if you find this podcast helpful, then please consider liking, subscribing or sharing it with someone in your circle, as it helps these positive messages and conversations reach that little bit further and hopefully help others feel less alone. So, without further ado, here's the brilliant Andrea Anderson. Oh my goodness, andrea, here we are. I've been really excited to have this chat with you because, oh my gosh, I'm a huge fan of your writing. Your writing is beautiful, and you've got this book coming out and I just think your story is incredible. So like, let's just dive in, darling, let's just go in Ready. I know you're no stranger to burnout in fact global so to start us off, let's dive in. Tell me about your experience with burnout.
Speaker 2:Well, I think it's only really sort of in the last few years I've recognised it as that. But my whole life, I think, really going back to school, I regularly got burned out, which I now recognise is because I'm wired differently. But yes, I've got a long history and a long kind of you know lifetime of every few months just burning out and being totally exhausted but not having a label for it or an understanding of what was going on. And later on down the line I had something called autistic burnout, which is sort of recognised as a much more prolonged period of burnout where you lose all your sort of ability, all the things that you're motivated by, you're just totally switched off by and you have a very low tolerance for kind of any sensory input. So yes, I've had autistic burnout which can take even longer to sort of, you know, really recover from. It's quite a prolonged, pronounced period of total exhaustion. So yes, I've been hit hard by the burnout.
Speaker 1:Well, I know, and it's it can. It's just you just feel so lonely and isolated in burnout and I don't know about you, but I constantly, every day. I'd play that card of why is everyone else managing their shit and not me? You know, so I know you worked in the fast fashion industry, didn't you? For many years. My goodness, that must have been like a little, a little magic pot for burnout A totally, I mean, but it was, it was a badge of honor.
Speaker 2:You know, like in the noughties it was totally a badge of honor. It's like you know fast fashion, dynamic, and you know a million miles an hour, and you know it's all about building something very quickly. We were really proud of fastness in the noughties, like to a ridiculous extent. So, yeah, it is exactly as you would imagine. It's quite a chaotic environment to work in and, by sort of very nature, a million miles an hour and that's what it feels like on the inside, like you're running at a million miles an hour.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I give, obviously fast fashion has gone through a lot and we're all starting to realize that actually that's not a good thing for the planet, that mass consumption. And I don't think necessarily all businesses and employers are onto the fact that working at that pace is not good either. But, yeah, lots of burnout, casualties in that kind of environment and yeah, that's hard because a lot of young people are over-promoted in those environments, they're not equipped, they're not supported and their casualties. And you know, just by the very nature, seen as a resource, that it can just be dispensed with.
Speaker 1:Absolutely and just and very difficult. When you're in that environment where it is a badge of honour, you're putting that pressure on yourself again, aren't you? When you're in that hot seat, you're just kind of. Again, you can be sat round the boardroom table going.
Speaker 2:Why am I the only one who's losing my shit, completely unaware that everyone else is like oh my God, yeah, I had the additional pressure in those environments of being a sort of undiscovered autistic woman who can't read the social cues. So you know, in a boardroom I don't know, I've only got experience of a couple of boardrooms, but they're quite Machiavellian environments where you know people are keeping their cards close to their chests and most of the work is happening outside of that room. There's a lot of strings and things that are happening. So one of the challenges you have, sort of being autistic, is you can't read the social cues, you can't read the invisible things that are happening. So that kind of stress and anxiety that's going on internally when you're trying to read and you're trying to second guess what's happened outside of the room, what's been brought in the room, but you know that creates additional kind of stress that leads to burnout, of course, because you're just exhausted from the mental load of trying to work all of that out at a million miles an hour.
Speaker 1:Oh, but dam mental load. And it's interesting to say you can remember being at school and kind of having moments where you'd almost burn out and so I can't help but listen. Being you probably adapted your life to meet your autistic needs, like, did you? Okay?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think a lot of neurodivergent women do. They have to because, as well as it being something that we just haven't had information about, it's a sort of relatively new phenomenon in how it's spoken or understood. It wasn't thought that women could be neurodivergent, ridiculously enough. So we've had to adapt in order to survive, and a lot of that is about camouflaging and compensating to fit the gender bias, which is very malleable and like we can form, we're compliant, we're social, we're able to organize life, we can do, and so, as well as not understanding that I was wired differently, you've also got this gender bias, haven't you that? You're supposed to know all this stuff and just make it magically happen? So, yeah, from a very early age, I was masking and adapting, and that's great, but it does take up a lot of energy to do that. So, yeah, burnout is neurodivergent for bedfellows.
Speaker 1:So well, and this is what you know, I was just as soon as I heard you talk about in another interview about burnout being a telltale sign for you and your path to diagnosis, honestly, my mouth, just I was just like, are you kidding me? Like, oh, my goodness, it was just so. How, what was the trigger point to you kind of going down the path of your diagnosis?
Speaker 2:So it was my child, it's my eldest child and I think for a lot of us Gen Xers, children or you know just it being a much more prevalent and talks about which we need more of. But my route in was my beautiful eldest son and he's very obvious difference, which I was very protective of from a very young age, and when autism was kind of inferred or talked about, I batted it, I ninjaed it away actually because I was really scared of him being labelled as being different and it took me to see how stressful it was for him at school to think and really recognise that actually I'm not being helpful in this. What I think is guarding and protecting it's actually it's a barrier to him understanding himself and understanding why things are so challenging for him. So as soon as I've seen that and it was quite a jolt because it was a bit of a shock to see how overwhelming it is in this like incredibly noisy environment for him I was able to access information quite quickly. So as soon as we started looking at it and I started to understand what all it really is is that you engage with the world differently, you communicate differently. It doesn't mean that you can't sort of adapt and fit in.
Speaker 2:I had all these really ridiculous limited notions of what autism was based on it not being represented or seen in the media. So Rain man or the like, the Scandinoids, where there's like a woman who's demanding sex and very straight talking, like those are the really limited representations of it. So I was frightened of it, I was scared of what it meant. But when I started looking at it and recognised in him and we started to have a language for him, it was quite a short hop for me to think, because it kept a genetic link, a genetic link and I kept thinking well, it's not my husband's, because he clearly is like that, the autistic sort of traits that are being described.
Speaker 2:But a lot of the reading I was doing was around how it presents in males and it not. You know, me and my son are different in different ways, so I could recognise some things but not a lot. But once I started to make that hop to how does it present in females, it was like, okay, wow, I totally can relate to all of this and I didn't know. I know this stuff, like you know, not talked about, but I really had to dig quite deep. You know it was only four or five years ago to to even find that information. So yeah, it was through my son that was the link in, and since then, once we've started to look at it, we realised we're a total neurodivergent family. My husband's ADHD and so my kids are autistic ADHD. I've got a younger son as well who's probably ADHD with a sprinkling of autism, because there's co occurrences. It's not just linear. You can have a little mix of them all growing on in there.
Speaker 1:Oh, which we both know means you have a household that has an incredible skill set.
Speaker 2:Do you know?
Speaker 1:I think that's what's really interesting. Now. I mean, we're going back kind of like how old is Alfie? He's 40. So we're going back like 15, 16, 17 years ago. I used to work with children who were just received their diagnosis, so they were young, like two to six, and I think terminology, you know the stigma. Oh my God, it's still there. But it was walking in the right direction. But that was the biggest kind of realisation for me was that you know that the skill set is incredible and, my gosh, we need that skill set. Yeah, you know, to solve the problems in the world. Like we're so lucky to have these incredible people who have this incredible skill set, because we're going to need that.
Speaker 2:We totally are, because there's really novel ways of looking at things, just like a totally different perspective. But their message from a really early age, through the education system and all of society, that they're not doing it right and so what often happens is they're concealing all of that brilliance, that richness, that like alternative thinking and just the whole discovery has really fired me up to change that narrative, you know, for women but for all of us, just to see it differently. You know, we're different, not difficult.
Speaker 1:So oh, we're different, not difficult. I love it. I mean, I'm just so excited for your book to come out because I've been following you on Instagram for one and I love your incredible messaging. I mean, you know, because there's a real paradigm, isn't there, between people who are neuro curious, like they're. You know they may be listening to this and thinking, okay, hang on a minute, like things are resonating here, and I completely appreciate there's that curiosity, but then there's also because there's still that stigma around it. It can feel limiting how, how, what kind of things came up for you when you were walking down that path?
Speaker 2:Oh, so much fear, like, so much fear. I remember vividly when I read about how autism presents in women, like everything just slowed down. You know that moment when you have that like epiphany like, and you get really hot because you're like, oh, so it's like a collision of like, fear and relief, like, oh, there's a thing, there's a thing this is like I'm not on my own, other people feel this but also the sort of fear of I don't want to have a thing. I don't want to have a thing because I want to fit. I'd spent a lifetime trying to be the same as everybody else. So it comes with a lot of like, yeah, relief and fear, just that collision of it. And I really had to battle a lot of my own sort of narrative about being wrong and that I was wrong and it. You know, if I go out and share this difference, that you know it was going to be met with hostility or disbelief or you know, so there's a lot, and you know, finding out when you're 45, I mean, all of us as women will be late discovered in our neurodivergence, because there's just has not been access to that information.
Speaker 2:So when I write about it in my book because writing for me is like my best form of communication. It's like everything just pours out and you're like, oh well, that's how I feel, because one of the things with autism is you don't always know how you feel. It's a thing called alexithemia, which is no words for feelings, and I think that's probably why I've been drawn into certain career past, because sort of latter day as a professional coach, because you get to ask loads of questions and you get to be really curious. But that's been a way that I've survived and sort of fitted into this world is by understanding human behavior and what's going on behind. So, yeah, I wrote a lot about my, what I was feeling as I was going through all of this, to make sense of it, because it's the way that I make sense of life is just by writing. So in my book it is about really helping neuro curious or neuro sort of discovered, to go through and make sense of what that means for them.
Speaker 2:So you and autism, like you know, what is it, what's coming up, what are those raw emotions, what's the unraveling that's happening? Because you do replay your life through a new lens and it's not like you know all when I was five and then when I was six. It's not a linear sort of unraveling. It comes at you in all sorts of different ways and you're often replaying a lot of really painful emotions, a lot of rejection that you've had and a lot of shame that you're carrying because you didn't know why things were so difficult for you. So, yeah, that I see myself in this book as a guide. It's like I'm going to take you by the hand, I'm going to share with you some of my insight and my lived experiences and I'm going to give you a whole heap of tools to help you make sense of your emotions. And the practical stuff Like do I want to go any further into this? Do I need a diagnosis? How do I get a diagnosis?
Speaker 2:Because you know in the UK there's a whole lot of barriers to it, I don't know how it is anywhere else, but Just getting a general practitioner to take you seriously, because there's just it's not widespread that information.
Speaker 2:There's so much bias and limited sort of small views of what it is and there's a lot. You know, most of the information is understood through a medical model which is very deficit based. So you know a lot of people can't believe that people can lead successful lives if they're a divergent, because you know they're looking at it through this really like problem based Model, you know. So, for example, you might say all you've got a really rigid sort of a narrow interest field. Actually you've got a load of passionate humans who absolutely know what they love inside out, back to front, they know everything about it. So the difference between the medical model and the sort of neurodiversity model which is emerging is neurodiversity is much more looking at. You know what are the strengths of these people and how can we embrace those and open them up and welcome them. But there's a lot that needs to happen to open the doors and really also accommodate for the needs that come with being wired differently, living in a world that's not made for you.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I'm listening to this. It's funny, isn't it? I'm your coach as well, so I'm sure you've come across this as well, like with burnout. I haven't met anyone who hasn't had to go through some kind of journey and go through their life and look at the things that their foundational pieces, when we need to change. We've got to kind of, you know, look at all those foundational pieces and I'm just listening and I'm thinking it must have been really difficult or confronting, because great that you kind of go down the road of right. I'm curious and I want to know more about me and I'm starting to resonate. But what about the circle around you? Like? This is why your work is so important and you're why we need you darling, because it's lonely, I'm sure. And you must have faced A lot of people who you know there was no malice there, but they had set views on the all diversity, so they're probably like you're fine, you're not, yeah exactly exactly that, and I do.
Speaker 2:I do cover that in my book, because you get a whole set of reactions that you're not ready for, and it depends where you are in your journey as well. So you know, like my parents generation are terrified of labels because they might not understand exactly what they mean. Or it's this new way of thinking or another new thing that we need to get our heads around, but it's genetic, so it comes from somewhere. So often yet, people will either want to rescue you and make you feel like you're okay, there's nothing wrong with you, but that's their own ableism, and it's not until you get further down the line in your own exceptions that you can kind of see that and be cute, more curious about that. So they either dismiss it as there's nothing wrong with you or they question the validity of it. You can't be autistic, you don't look autistic, it's ridiculous. Or they ridicule you in this like oh, you know and there's a lot in the UK and mainstream media terrible like ableism, where it's like we can't have all these people like looking at tiktok and Diagnosing themselves because it they see difference as a problem, a deficit going to cost them money. So there's all that narrative. But you know it's no walk in the park to be neurodivergent and to and by the time you have really explored and looked at it, you know you've got all the evidence you need. You've lived a life where you've been messaged with a lot of this stuff and when you go through a diagnosis process, that's what you need to provide anyway. It's the evidence that you've got it.
Speaker 2:But it's not easy. There's so many barriers so you wouldn't want to acquire this label Unless it's something you've really lived and experienced. And so, yeah, there's there's, there's a lot of and reactions that can be difficult and that affects how you are able to sort of accept it yourself. Or you know the fear that comes from really delving into it deeper, because You're, you've often been trying to fit and, you know, comply with what's normal. So when you you're met with those reactions with might be intended to be well meaning and helpful, that can set you back or that can make you feel a lot more shame than is necessary.
Speaker 2:But yes, and my work is definitely I think a lot of women are starting to rise up and join their voices and Share their stories, because we need to give that representation to those who are yet to discover it, but also people to be much more welcoming and accepting that. You know the adaptions need to be made for difference to truly belong and for You're a divergent humans to live a good quality of life. Because burn out, if you know, we know who would want that for any human. It you know to have for them to be in such a level of stress and anxiety that they're constantly exhausted and burns out, affecting the quality of their lives, isn't it?
Speaker 1:It is. And when you think we're like hardwired, aren't we to be part of a tribe, to be part of the community, is that survival? It ensures that when you think about you know people who who had chronic burnout and multiple burnouts, you know people who Kind of exploring that you know a diversity path. They may kind of you look back and you go, oh my god, I've been bloody on survival mode for how many. But you become so accustomed to it and you've got all these masks that you put on.
Speaker 2:You don't realize the amount of energy you've had to use just to Get up and go face the world every day, absolutely because what you're doing is you're constantly adapting, your anticipating what's likely to come up, what's going to be thrown at me, how do I need to be? You know, you've got no idea really what you're going to be hit with, and then you're trying to adapt to this ongoing uncertainty and change and then you're analyzing how did I perform? Did I do it right? I don't think I got that right. So you're in this constant cycle and, and you know, if you're not getting recovery within you know life, then you just then you burn out, don't you? And it becomes more and more difficult to recover and recuperate from it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it takes longer. I think, yeah, I don't know about you. But I look back and think, oh my gosh, like I ended up taking to well a year off work and then do my own kind of thing. But I'm like, oh, if only I just looked after myself better. It's the self compassion piece that was missing, and I think a lot of people burn out, and I think this is what I love about your messaging like you're just so, you're brilliant at flying the flag for self compassion.
Speaker 2:Yeah well, it is a really big part of acceptance for yourself. Like it. You have the sort of dialogues that a lot of us have internally, which is sort of fueled externally by this. The whole like capitalism thing is about productivity and the heart. You know it's all based, particularly as women, on free labor that we're just going to carry the emotional burden and we'll do all of this for free to keep this sort of fast pace. You know efficient way that we're living. And look at us, we're all like efficient and we can just do whatever. Throw more at me.
Speaker 2:If we're not able to do that, then the shame and the isolation and the margin of a marginalization that comes from that. There's something wrong with me, I can't do that. You take yourself quietly off and the internal dialogue is like what is something wrong with me? I failed, I'm not good enough for it, and it's sort of fueling. It isn't it. But it's being fed to us by all these like Subliminal messages and so self compassion is so important.
Speaker 2:For the kid is like the thing that once you've accepted, you know whatever. I think you know all women. There's a part of self acceptance. This is who I am, what I'm good at, I don't need to be that person. You know we are not the same. But once you're able to understand, you know this is what I need to function well and I need to take care of myself. It becomes a different dialogue. It's not all, there's something wrong with me. It's like, okay, well, if I choose to do this and I choose to contribute in this way and this is what I need In order to do that well, so I just know when I'm factoring in you know different things into my diary. Okay, so I'm going to do a talk or I'm going to be doing this. I'll be tired after that. I need to factor that in. So it's as simple as that. But you and actually learning to say no, it's a really big thing, isn't it?
Speaker 1:Thinking it must be the same for you for kind of late discovered women.
Speaker 2:Definitely it's, because it's definitely I think in the last couple of years there's a much more. You know, there's some amazing voices coming to the forefront, but it was really hard and it was really hard to find relatable stuff. Like I remember when I was first looking at it and there was all these books about and this is how you shower and personal hygiene, and autistic women aren't very good at fashion and I was just like what, like you know, like just it's really limited, ridiculous view of it and yeah, so I think that kind of fueled me to want to write about it as well. It's because, like, this doesn't represent me or my life and I don't need someone to tell me that basic kind of things. It is much more about the rawness and the realness and that's what I want to read about and I want to.
Speaker 2:One of the things sort of characteristic of autism is we're not great small talk, we go deep, and we go deep quite quickly. So, yeah, I kind of wanted to pick up a book that when they're you know, that was like having that really amazing conversation with someone is like I'm just that knowing this, like yes, this is what it's like, that you say, seeing those words gives you comfort that you know I'm not alone. Other people are going through this, and I always might not be exactly the same, but I can relate to that bit, that bit and that bit.
Speaker 1:When you read stories or hear, someone will be listening to this one, and they'll be listening to you and I know your words, your voice, your beautiful energy. It'll feel like they're taken ten coats off because they're like, yeah, okay, because they're feeling seen and heard for the first time long time. Yeah, and we need that definitely. Oh, my God, we do need that. And it's interesting because I think it's a real myth that people with autism they're not good at perceiving the feelings of others, and I think that's so wrong, isn't it? Totally wrong?
Speaker 2:So I think, and also ADHD is very similar as well. So there's cognitive empathy and there's emotional empathy. So what can be tricky with the cognitive empty is to look or to understand how you know what someone might be thinking. But I feel how people are feeling, like I feel it and it's what makes me great at what I do and amazing and sort of. I've worked in environments where it's about making the invisible visible through culture and values and bringing it to life, and I do that through being guided by my intuition and feeling like, oh, like you know, and then asking the question, just being really gently curious about it.
Speaker 2:I've been in this one since in this and you know I used to work with it. Some of the people in my team used to be, like you, psychic no, I'm definitely not psychic but I could tune into the feeling it's like, and I used to ignore that sort of source of information and not really understand it when I was younger. But as I've, you know, accepted myself more and understood my strengths and definitely through this whole kind of neurodivergent journey, it's the best source of like this intuition, this like emotional empathy. It's an amazing thing to feel how other people are feeling, but you do need to sort of know that's not my feeling, it's not mine and not absorb it all. So it's kind of knowing where the boundaries need to be and understanding. It's great to have this thing, but sometimes I need space from it in order to kind of decompress.
Speaker 2:But I've got even things like where I live in Brighton. It's a beautiful city, it's like you know most people on the fringes, lots of alternative thinking characters. There's a lot of homelessness and drug addiction here and it's I can't walk past homeless people without making eye contact, like I want them to know, I see them, and you know people who are really struggling mentally. Like talking to them, it's like I see them, I can feel that, but that stays with me for quite a while.
Speaker 2:So, having this wisdom and this knowledge now at nearly 50, it's like, ok, I feel that and I see that, but I don't need to absorb it and I don't. But yeah, what we're living through right now, you know, we're seeing it everywhere and I feel that I carry that feeling. So, yes, it's totally false that autistic and neurodivergent people haven't got empathy. It can be experienced differently. Not everybody will have like strong emotional empathy, but there's a lot of us who do and we feel things really strongly and we have to take care of ourselves so that we can regulate ourselves and our emotions and know what's ours and what someone else is. But, yeah, we can feel the world a lot.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think it that's kind of going back to that burnout piece, isn't it? That it's just really taking the action. You've got this incredible skill set and you can do amazing things in the world. I believe that workplaces are very lucky when they have people who are not, because, let's face it, it's so irritating, isn't it? I mean, we kind of grew up in the eighties and worked in the noughties and whatever, and I think only now are we starting to see workplaces recognize that different personalities, different skill sets or an asset.
Speaker 1:Where was I going with this? Sorry, I've lost track already. I just feel it's really important that we hear from people like you who have this real kind of lived experience of coming through this journey, so we can remember that we need to be looking after ourselves. Everyone should and everyone should be championing each other. You know, because burnout, you know, you kind of oh, I definitely, I definitely came across people going, oh, burnout, or you just need to relax. Oh, I had a little bit of that, you just need to relax for you know, yeah, or two, oh, I'll tell you about burnout. That wasn't bloody helpful. I was in my notes and I think you know. That's why we need to champion each other. We need to learn about each other because, you know, learn about ourselves and then we're just better for everyone.
Speaker 2:And the thing that I've learned recently is that you can't just if you're so burned out, you can't just rest. It's not like, oh, I just go and have a lighter, because when you're nervous system is so sort of a dysregulated, you need to do things to build to access rest. You can't just go. And it's actually not always just about rest, of like sitting down and not doing anything. It's discovering other ways to rest. But I'm understanding now that to sort of calm your nervous system, it's sort of accessing ways to calm it down through your body. So it could be, you know, through your tapping, you know your senses, and then you can start to calm your mind a little bit. But it's not. You can't.
Speaker 2:You know, if you're burned out often when I was like burned out at work and so, like you know, genuinely physically ill, either with a virus or run down, or you know I've had some thyroid problems you can't then just go home and switch off. Your mind is still wired and you're wanting to get back to that place really quick because the guilt you're carrying about oh God, there's something wrong with me that I can't. You know, I'm constantly getting ill and burned out and I can't and everybody thinks I'm flaky, I need to get back to it. It's really hard to recover from burnout because you need to access or calm your nervous system enough to go to access the rest you need to recover.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's funny, isn't it? Because sometimes those environments are better than devil, you know. You spend all these decades living in them and surviving them and creating all these mess to function in them, that, to not have that to be, you know, taking time out and trying to kind of, as you say, regulate your nervous system. That can actually feel a sweat in itself, can't it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Take time off, rest, you must recover, you must like, yeah, yeah. So yeah, having worked in some quite, I've worked with some amazing creative people and I loved. You know, whilst I you know fast fashion advice, very nature is quite stressful. I worked with some amazingly talented, creative people and I'm really proud to have worked in those environments. But I know for workplaces to change, it can't be like a tokenistic gesture or just like a one day. It's got to be culturally embedded and it's got to be lots of signals that come from the people that run and lead those companies. But it's okay to take time to rest and it's all right to talk about our struggles. But you've got to make that okay to stop the cycle of it happening. Or for humans to be seen as resources that are just expendable and can be, you know, burned out in the corner. We'll just get another one.
Speaker 1:I know that's the heartbreaking thing, isn't it? Oh my gosh, and I think we're so used to thinking, pairing rest with, like hitting a crisis point. We should yes, exactly, we should be. We're aiming for balance, we're aiming for that kind of lovely flow, and I think it's our mistake, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Yes, it definitely is, and I think it's part of if you put yourself in environments that are not aligned to your natural self, like they're going to be really difficult for you and they probably will create additional stress. So, you know, in my work as a coach, a lot of it is about helping people to get to this self acceptance like really embrace your strengths and the things that matter most to you, your values, and know what environments those things will be sort of readily embraced. And when you're honoring your values and you're in a place where it feels natural and psychologically safe to show up as yourself, then that really helps with sort of a lot of what might come from the exhaustion where we're funneling ourselves into these career paths or jobs that we should do. Or we work really hard in areas actually which are struggles for us, like if we think, oh, that's a perceived weakness. Well, I just work really hard, I work harder and harder and harder to be really good at that site and we totally ignore the things we're amazing at which would come with ease, you know. So we need to change that as well.
Speaker 2:So that's a big part of my drive as a writer and a neurodivergent educator is, you know, really helping people to embrace and understand the things they're brilliant at. There's something we have with a neurodivergent brain, a spiky profile. So the things you're great at, you're really great at them. The things that you struggle with, you really struggle with them, and I think once you understand that, then you can start to embrace these things and put some things in place that will help you with these struggles, because often it's a disparity between the strengths and the sort of needs that make us discount these things or disbelief that we're good at them. Yeah, so you're right. I think it is like getting your own first aid kit and knowing what you need to be well in the world. It's like it's ongoing. It's not just when we're in crisis point or we're so exhausted that we can't function part of life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and we need to help each other, champion each other, to recognize our strengths. Because, it's interesting, I find a lot of people who are burnt out have that very negative, inner critical voice and, let's face it, it never came from them, it's someone else's piece, but you know it was an educator, whether it was a parent, a family member, because it was never their voice and it always breaks my heart. But, you know, I think we need to well, conversations like this. They need to be had because someone's going to be able to hear this and then it's just that almost permission slip to start looking at your strengths, yeah, but don't you think that that's one of the right conditions?
Speaker 2:for the saboteurs or the inner critics is exhaustion oh my gosh yes. Because when we're exhausted, it's like that's when the real sort of they start to have a field day Because we're just not functioning as well as we could be if we were, yeah, feeling well and energized and all those things. So it's that kind of cycle that we get into. You know, you're constantly in that exhaustion place and those inner critics are going to be having a field day with you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's very easy for me to down spiral, very easy and, as you say, like you're kind of, you can feel yourself doing it, you're like, well, I'm tiptoeing closer to it, stop it. Yeah, absolutely I. Yeah, gosh, the unraveling piece I feel is a big one. And you, I feel like your work and your positive messaging really helps people look at this unraveling piece, because you know it's brave to take these steps towards looking at those foundational pieces in your life, isn't it? And making new majors and making positive changes. But I also know there's an element of grief, there's an element of sadness, when you start to look back and see where you weren't championing yourself and you were giving fragments of yourself away. And it must be something that you've kind of written about or and in your community.
Speaker 2:Definitely, you're absolutely right it once you have that sort of dawning of like, oh well, this is why some things are so difficult. Often we expect it to be like oh, this is amazing, now I know everything's going to be fine, but it's just the beginning. It's just the beginning of us really starting to delve and look deeper. So it I understand that's part of why some people are resistant to really going there, because it's frightening. It's really frightening to to look in back. So, yeah, something I've written about recently is, you know, I think, as coaches and as writers and living in this world, we we think, okay, well, that's what I want, or this is who I am, and therefore it will become instantly. But it's not like that Change takes time, like it takes time to grow into the person that we're longing to be. Or okay, well, and now I know I'm autistic that that's just one piece of it, but you need to. Then, you know, let a lot of old stuff go, you need to unlearn a lot of it and grieve for the pain that you had going through that. So it's just one discovery, is just one part of it. Then there is, like you know, the healing and the unraveling of what that was like and grieving and the healing from it. But it's also one of the biggest things for me and all of this was I was expecting sort of like I don't know acceptance externally to come like, okay, oh, you're autistic, oh, oh, you know, and for sort of almost to be this, like well, this is amazing and we accept you as you are. And it's not like that and it is. You have to accept yourself and that's really, I think, what a lot of the unraveling is about.
Speaker 2:And my book is called this Is who I Am the Autistic Woman's Creative Guide to Belonging, because that's what this really became about for me. It started off it was about thriving and then it's like well, actually it's not just about thriving, it's actually no longer having to fit and actually feeling a sense of belonging, which is something that you know I've been seeking for life. But belonging is showing up as who you are and feeling safe to do so. And there's got to be a really big internal acceptance piece that allows you to do that, because once you accept yourself, you don't have to keep trying to fit, to please or to fit, to conform and to be convenient for others. Once you've done that bit and you embrace all of your strengths and all of the needs you've got. You know, then you can really step into this place where it's safe to express yourself naturally and to belong.
Speaker 2:And part of it is actually letting go of people who won't accept you for that.
Speaker 2:Or, you know, I do, I have sort of quoted it in my book the sort of old serenity prayer which I know is about sobriety, but it's like give me the strength to accept the things I can't change and change the things I can't accept. But that's a big part of you know the unraveling and the acceptance. So you might have family members who are never going to accept you for who you are, and that's okay. So you can either choose to accept that you can't change them or change that. You know the fact that they're not going to accept you. But it just gives you a lot more choices. Once you go through all of that unraveling and get to acceptance and beyond, that is genuine belonging like, not just like a big community but yourself. It's like this is who I am and it's all right to be that. You know I'll find my people. Because once I'm in that space and I'm genuinely able to show up like that, then you just find it's easier, isn't it?
Speaker 1:It is, and it's so funny when you were saying that we're belonging. I've definitely chatted to other people and what's really interesting is when you come out, burnout. Burnout is that often you haven't had yourself, you haven't belonged to yourself for so long. That takes steps as well, doesn't it? Yeah?
Speaker 2:it really does, because it's you've just been functioning for others. That's a lot, isn't it? I'm just functioning for other people like I'm not functioning for me, like it's a big hard thing to recognize. But once you do, it doesn't mean you like you say no to everything, you don't do anything. But it comes with much more conditions and boundaries and an ability to say I should have got a request to make or that won't work for me and you belong with yourself. When you're doing that. You know what's important and what's needed for you to live fulfilling life not just surviving but actually enjoying life.
Speaker 1:I was going to say the other side of it is the joy and the thriving and the ease. Yes, you've been like kind of functioning and trying to fit in different boxes and be a certain way when, as soon as you have yourself, you set the other side of that, you get that flow, that ease, and it's just not going to feel so good on your nervous system, isn't it Definitely?
Speaker 2:Definitely, and it's all like suddenly it's a walk in the park. It still comes with challenges, but you're able to identify it much quicker and to say, oh OK, or I've walked into that trap again, oh, do you know what I've done? But you understand why. You can extract yourself quicker and you can recover much quicker from it, can't you? So yeah, ease does come and you still have to work at it, but you can correct, you can sort of get on that kind of correction path much quicker.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love how you said you know change takes time and you're growing into yourself. That's that amazing David Bowie quote. I'm a bit of a Bowie girl. I love him. Oh, me too, behind there in my law. Oh, that's amazing. Yeah, oh Bowie, oh my gosh, we miss him still.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh, totally, what is quite, don't we?
Speaker 1:Oh, it's the one Gosh, I hope I don't butcher this now. It's the one where he says like aging is literally growing into the person you were always meant to be. Yes, and I you know and I feel that's what that's your motivation. Yes, some days are going to be difficult, Some things are going to feel confronting, but you keep taking those steps forward to belonging to yourself, to being yourself and becoming who you're meant to be, and it's glorious when we're not all the bloody same.
Speaker 2:Yes, exactly, and it is sort of, you know, finding ways to be like it's all right because, because you feel much more solid in that, don't you Much more kind of grounded and real, rather than all over the place of everybody, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, I cannot wait for your book to come out. I love your writing. I fell in a. I fell down a rabbit hole in a Saturday morning just devouring every single one of your blogs on your website. I urge anyone to. I just love them. Your writing's amazing, I think you know. Oh my gosh, it could only be you who could write this book that we all need. Much like your energy is amazing, andrea, like you just have this incredible way with words and this. You know approach and I think it's going to be fantastic and this has been a treat to be able to sit with you and dive into this. For anyone listening to this and has is kind of neuro curious. Now, are there any kind of quick tips that you can give someone that they can start to look at going down that path?
Speaker 2:I think either there's lots, there's a lot more information available, sort of you know the podcast. So one of my favorite it's okay to mention the podcast, Absolutely yes. So Catherine Aster has a brilliant podcast called the late discovered club and she has some amazing guests on there from all walks of life. So I think, yeah, just I would really urge you to go and check that out. And she talks to women who are late discovered in autism and ADHD, so you know, and they will share their stories of their discovery and the change that they want to see. So I would really urge you to check that out.
Speaker 2:I love for myself, as well as my book that's coming out in July, I'm about to launch my own sub stack, which is called belong. We are new looking and so you know, as an educator, there'll be loads of my writing on there about neuro divergence, how it shows up, but a lot about healing and growth. So if you want access to tools to help you with your emotions and practical stuff, there'll be loads on there and you can access that through my website. It's probably the easiest way to go in. So, yes, I'm going to be sharing more stuff on there, but it is just being really curious and, as you say, it's like a rabbit hole. Once you find that it'll lead it somewhere else.
Speaker 2:So I would just say to anybody just be curious as you go into it. Like, be gentle with yourself. I probably, I think, by my very nature, with sort of autism, you can see patterns, you can see things quite systemically. So I probably was quite quick to kind of jump to okay, well, now I need answers. And I know a lot of other neurodivergent women who do that, because they kind of see the sequences that need to happen in order to get from A to B, but the unraveling is quite brutal and you can't account for or measure how much time that's going to take. So just know, be curious and allow yourself the expansiveness of looking at it from all the different angles. But be patient with yourself and know that when you go into it, find people who you can speak to that you feel comfortable with. But it will take time before you kind of get to a place where you feel fully accepting of it and to find that belonging. So yeah, be curious, be patient, be loving to yourself as you go through it.
Speaker 1:You've played the biggest flag for self-compassion. You really do. I love that and I think anyone listening as well. I urge you to go and follow the thread on all of Andrea's work because you know what it's like. The way you talk that you're for it. I don't know what it is. I feel like I'm being hugged. That's just so, so.
Speaker 2:Thank you. I have had some people say that to me, like you must just say your voice is so soothing it's like ah, I bit my husband and kids with a grin with you on that, thank you.
Speaker 1:I just feel that you know. But anyone feeling really kind of lonely and isolated, just follow the thread on Andrea's work. You're going to feel so subbed and hugged and nurtured and seen. So it's amazing. Thank you for everything you do. It's incredible Now I've been asking guests at the end of conversations quick, light hearted questions, because we all answer so differently. So on your dodgy days, andrea, do you opt for move your body or move the remote?
Speaker 2:Move the remote every time. Like I love diving into all the guilty pleasures like rom-coms and family dramas. You know it kind of helps me to work out my emotions sometimes by watching this stuff. So always it's like ah, actually I feel like that I hadn't realised, that's why I needed a good cry. But yes, remote every time. Oh, I love it OK.
Speaker 1:Bag of almonds or bag of malt teasers, bag of crisps actually. Oh, bag of crisps, what flavour.
Speaker 2:Well, I probably just I chips and dicks. I like a tortilla with a dip. So yeah, not very exotic on the flavours necessarily, but yeah, I like a good crunch.
Speaker 1:Yes, exactly OK. Do you ask for help or are you happy to hermit?
Speaker 2:Hermit. Hello, I am Really, really trying. So hermit is the first thing I need to do to regulate and soothe and just sort of work out and as part of the belonging is learning to share when I'm anxious or I'm feeling overwhelmed. So yeah, but first place is always the hermit to kind of work out the feelings and what I need and then go in and ask for help.
Speaker 1:Yeah, go to that place of calm. It's having you along into yourself Absolutely. And what's the one self-compassionate thing you're going to do today for yourself?
Speaker 2:I think it's not very exciting, but it is rest, it is like I just sleep is so important to me and it makes me feel so much better. So often Thursdays used to be my switch up. It's nearly the weekend, but it's actually just need to continue with the rest. So tonight, just going to bed a little bit earlier and, yeah, then I go swimming on a Friday morning. So, yeah, today will be, tomorrow will be better as a result of me having a good night's sleep tonight.
Speaker 1:Lovely, amazing. Oh, andrea, thank you so much for your time today. This has been an absolutely gorgeous conversation and I just know the ripple effect will be huge. It's going to just be that shift and they're going to follow the thread on their curiosity.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you so much for asking me. It's been a total pleasure and it's great that you know you're talking about this stuff to be a place where people can tune in and know they're not alone. So I'm really delighted you've asked me. I've really loved it, Thank you.
Speaker 1:Oh, thank you. Well, you take care of putting the show notes where people can find you, okay, thank you. Bye, thank you. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Everyday Burnout Conversations. Take a peek at the show notes for any links to items discussed today. And if you want to continue the Burnout Conversation, you can find me on social media at Flictailer Rights, or you can head to my website, flictailercom, if you're curious and want to learn more on what it's like to work with me one to one. So, in the meantime, rest up, don't forget to take good care of you and bye for now.