Everyday Burnout Conversations
Everyday burnout conversations is an honest podcast sharing the burnout experiences of others from all walks of life. Host, Flic Taylor, is a writer whose passion for burnout arose when she became a mental health writer dealing with severe burnout - and yes, the irony is not lost on her! Enjoy these weekly conversations sharing stories of surviving and thriving, all delightfully wrapped up in epic truths, compassion, and humour.
Everyday Burnout Conversations
Michaela Thomas | The silent struggles of ADHD burnout and neurodivergent overwhelm
In this everyday burnout conversation, I chat with Michaela Thomas.
Michaela is a Senior Clinical Psychologist, CBT Psychotherapist, and couples therapist. She is the founder and clinical director of The Thomas Connection, the author of "The Lasting Connection," and the host of the podcast Pause Purpose Play.
Michaela runs the 'Burnout to Burn Bright' program and is creating a new program, Lost Girls, aiming to support women with ADHD who have been misdiagnosed or went unrecognised in their childhood.
Michaela shares the challenges faced by women with ADHD, since perfectionism and people-pleasing are often coping mechanisms that are developed. She sheds light on everyday experiences, such as the toll of constant demands and the emotional labour involved in maintaining a façade of normalcy in environments that rarely cater to neurodivergent needs.
Michaela candidly talks about navigating the path to her own recent ADHD diagnosis, discussing the importance of self-compassion and how to manage ADHD-related overwhelm.
Masking ADHD is like performing on a stage day in, day out, without ever taking a bow - it's bloody exhausting. This episode peels back the curtain on the silent battles those with ADHD face, from draining meetings to finding solace in solitude. We shine a spotlight on the revelation that thriving with ADHD requires more than just learning to 'overcome' it - a cornerstone of our conversation on neurodivergent needs.
Join us for this heartfelt episode that illuminates the nuances of ADHD and burnout and celebrates the compassion and strength found in community and self-care.
Learn more about Michaela's work here:
Michaela’s website
Michaela’s Instagram
Michaela’s podcast
Please note, this podcast is not intended as medical advice. If you're having a rough time or concerned that you're experiencing burnout, remember YOU matter, so please reach out to your doctor or mental health professional for support and guidance tailored for you.
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Check out my latest work and discover how you can work one-to-one with me to tackle your burnout at flictaylor.com
Hello, I'm Flick and you're listening to Everyday Burnout Conversations. This is the honest podcast that shares burnout expertise, along with the stories of others from all walks of life that strive to inspire and help you manage and avoid burnout. Now, my passion for burnout and self-care came about when I became a mental health writer who'd lost her own mental health to severe burnout, and it's an irony that's not lost on me. So get set to enjoy another great conversation, delightfully wrapped up in some wisdom, humour and great storytelling. Enjoy.
Flic Taylor :In this Everyday Burnout Conversation I chat with Michaela Thomas. Michaela is a senior clinical psychologist. She's a CBT psychotherapist and couples therapist. Michaela is the founder and clinical director of the Thomas Connection and she's the author of the Lasting Connection and host of the podcast Paul's Purpose Play. Michaela runs the Burnout to Burn Bright programme and she's created a new programme called Lost Girls, aiming to support women with ADHD who have been misdiagnosed or when unrecognised in their childhood.
Flic Taylor :In this chat, michaela shares the challenges faced by women with ADHD, since perfectionism and people pleasing well, they're often coping mechanisms that are developed. She sheds light on the everyday experiences, such as the tall, constant demands and the emotional labour involved in maintaining a façade of normalcy in environments that rarely cater to neurodivergent needs. Michaela candidly talks about navigating the path to her own recent ADHD diagnosis, and we peel back a curtain on the silent battles those with ADHD faced, discussing the importance of self compassion and how to manage ADHD related overwhelm. So join us for this heartfelt conversation that it illuminates the nuances of ADHD and burnout and celebrates the compassion strength found in community and self care. Oh, and, if you find this podcast helpful, then please consider giving it a like and subscribe or sharing it with someone in your circle, as it truly helps these positive messages and conversations reach out a little bit further and hopefully help others feel less alone. So, without further ado, here's Michaela Thomas. Oh Michaela, oh my gosh, we're finally here. We're finally sat together having a good old burnout chat.
Michaela Thomas :We are indeed, I'm really excited about this one.
Flic Taylor :I know, because I think we've been following each other on Instagram for a few years now, haven't we?
Michaela Thomas :Yeah.
Flic Taylor :The message and work you're putting out there, so this is a real treat. Thank you for joining me.
Michaela Thomas :Well, thank you for having me and for being patient with me counselling probably a couple of times, but we got there.
Flic Taylor :It's life. I think I've cancelled on you as well, because life throws curveballs, so I just love that we're here today, so thank you.
Michaela Thomas :That's interesting as well. That's a good starting point, because I didn't keep track of that. I just kept track of the fact that I've cancelled. So this is kind of what the ADHD brain does as well that we have that negativity bias about our own performance and don't judge other people to the same yardstick that we judge ourselves.
Flic Taylor :See, the wisdom is coming through already. So, to start us off, do you want to share a little bit about your personal story, your personal experiences with burnout?
Michaela Thomas :Of course, I think of it as the experience of sitting on the second step of the stairs. I was sat in my flat an amazing flat outside of London and I couldn't stop crying. I couldn't make myself get off the steps and go to work. So this is years, years back. This was when I was working in the NHS, as, I say, a clinical psychologist and CBT therapist, and I was just overwhelmed and overworked and obviously I didn't know at the time that that was linked to my ADHD brain, which I know now. But at the time I just thought it was just never enough of me. The pressures of the NHS, the demands. There were so many people who were struggling and I have always had a deeply feeling heart, deeply compassionate and empathetic with other people. This is obviously how I've made a career in psychology, and helping others is part of my purpose, part of my drive, and I think it just got the better of me.
Michaela Thomas :I worked in a service through no fault of its own. Nobody was horribly mean to anything. They were just working in a system where they would happily accept anyone going above and beyond for nothing, anyone who was perfectionistic like I was. It was just a system that welcomed that because they meant you took more patients, you had more on your case load, you took more responsibility and I was even referred to, as we don't have to manage Michaela because she manages herself. I was such a good girl, so fast forward to today, obviously. Now I'm 40, mother of two, the business owner of a surviving psychology practice. I have put a lot of different things in place now so that I don't ever come to that point where I sat on the stairs ever again.
Flic Taylor :Yeah, it's interesting. I worked in the NHS too and I've actually had a couple of people I used to work with reach out to me recently because obviously some either Instagram posts or podcasts have resonated. And I think it's so prevalent in the National Health Service because, as you say, people are drawn to caring, because they have this empathy and compassion and they want to make difference and it feels so good to help someone, doesn't it? Like it's every fiber of our being. But you're so right, there's an element of. Is that badge of honour If you're resilient, if you keep going?
Michaela Thomas :I know, yeah, and then the more people you help, the better you feel, and even in my burnout episode I still never felt like I don't want to go and see my patients. That was the bit that got me through. I was even thinking, do I need to be sign off sick from work? And I was actually. Now I'm enjoying the work I do. I just didn't enjoy the structure that I was doing the work in. I didn't enjoy the environment, and now I obviously know that it wasn't conducive to my ADHD brain because I didn't have any middle ground. I couldn't just go for like a slow and sustainable pace. At that point I went all or nothing and that meant that certain aspects of the job which are very, very important and crucial for clinical psychology to work I really struggled with and things like report writing, because obviously there's no dopamine in that right. There's no fun.
Michaela Thomas :I loved all the contact with the patients and obviously now the same thing with my clients today. That is the bit that lights me on fire. I am highly energised when I am with other people, but then I use up all my spoons, as we metaphorically say. I use up all my efforts on that and then when we come to the end of the day and you just have to, like sort out your notes and write all the letters. I'm like no, no, no, no. And obviously I didn't know at the time that it was to do with it not being fun, because it's like who enjoys doing things that are not fun? It's very human, but the demand avoidance that comes with the ADHD brain is of a different level. It's not like, oh, I can't be bothered because that doesn't bring joy to my life, and not like you sort of Marie. Condoing your way out of responsibility is just hard to make yourself start and initiate tasks that require you to do things you don't enjoy. So very low boredom tolerance.
Flic Taylor :I'm already going. Yeah, I can relate to that.
Michaela Thomas :Well, I kind of know that this could be a conversation which is eye-opening for you and your listeners about oh, that's why I've been burnt out.
Flic Taylor :It's going to be eye-opening for me, but I know I'm not alone, so I'm going to be very candid in this, because I know someone else will be listening to this. Go, yep, I'm right there with Flick, so this is really interesting. Can you explain a little bit about the dopamine and why it keeps us on that hamster wheel, because I think this is fascinating.
Michaela Thomas :So dopamine is sort of linked with reward in some ways, sort of the feel good hormone in some ways. So actually I feel like it's a sense of satisfaction or achievement, or like tic, ding, ding, ding, ding sort of. That's how we might feel if you go into a casino and you put money in the slot machines or you scratch a scratch card, or you order something on Amazon that you don't actually really need and then it comes delivered and you're like, oh, here's that thing, because the dopamine is in that moment of you ordering the thing and then when it arrives, oh right, okay, I didn't really need that. It's the same thing that makes us check our phone notifications over and over again, because when we do get a new message, dopamine is almost like lights us up, like, oh, here we go, I got rewarded for checking that. This is why we get stuck in scroll holes on Instagram, because there's always new content, refreshing, there's always more things to stimulate your brain with.
Michaela Thomas :So dopamine, when we have too much of it I mean we're talking extreme levels it can be linked with things like manic episodes, where we have not enough of it. It can be linked with depressive episodes. So we are actually too flat to do anything, I'm not bothered, I don't feel any pleasure, I feel no interest in things, I'm just, I can't, I feel indifferent, etc. And when there's too much of it it can be exhausting, because you're burning through all your cylinders and like it's almost like a frantic energy and you might do your, say things that you never regret later. So that's not to say that ADHD is the same as being bipolar or what we used to be called manic depressive. But we know that dopamine has a very important role in our emotional systems as well. It's also linked with serotonin, which is more to do with how we feel good. So serotonin is often low in people who are depressed. So all of these different neurotransmitters link to each other.
Michaela Thomas :But dopamine is particularly important when we're talking about ADHD, because it can be explained why we then do impulsive stuff or say things or get stuck in things that might even be addictive, because we want that dopamine reward. It stimulates the brain. So this is why also we ADHD medication is stimulating stimulants, because your brain is actually trying to find a way so stimulating itself. It's undestimulated rather than overstimulated, and that's where we're thinking about the hamster wheel that you mentioned, why that's so easy to get caught in that because it provides a dopamine hit. It provides a bit of a reward I've ticked something off or I completed a job, or someone gave me praise, well done for doing this thing.
Michaela Thomas :And then we can get stuck in being overproductive and over functioning, despite it actually having a really negative impact on our energy levels, actually sucking us dry with energy, hollowing us out or depleting us to the point of burnout because it just feels so good to have it. We can see that even in mice running in it will start if you give them certain types of stimulants. They will run until they fall, drop dead. Basically because they override this natural need to rest and recover. And that's something that can happen in ADHD burnout that we just don't heed this need to rest and recover because we can't feel the cues coming from inside us. It's called inter-receptive cues, like the body signals that says you're now thirsty, you need to go to the toilet, you need a break, you've been working for too long. All of those can be quite weak in the ADHD brain, so that's why we override it run a bit faster for a bit longer on the hamster wheel and burnout.
Flic Taylor :Oh my goodness, oh Mikaela, like what are we 10 minutes in, 10 minutes in? And I'm always like, oh my gosh, this is fantastic.
Michaela Thomas :Bring out the tissues.
Flic Taylor :I know this is amazing. I mean, and you must work with many women who are on that hamster wheel. And then the days when the dopamine isn't there, are they then picking up the stick and beating themselves with it because they're not being active enough and they feel they should. And what's wrong with me?
Michaela Thomas :Oh yeah, absolutely, Because that's the sense of, it's the all and nothingness of the ADHD brain. That can mean that we either have a now or not now tendency. Now it's like I need to do this thing right now. I'm clicking my fingers, I need to do this right now. I can't wait, I have to do it now.
Michaela Thomas :That can include not being able to avoid looking at your emails because they could be right there, something could have happened, versus not now, which is, I can't make myself look at that email, I just need to procrastinate, to crap out of that and I can't get started, can't get going. So the now versus not now of the two modes there means that there's very hard to find the middle ground of doing little bits here and there and often and it tends to be instead of like spikes of activity, which can be very tiring. And then the self criticism, the stick you're mentioning and beating ourselves with. The self criticism then comes out because of the comparison, the unfair comparison, with neurotypicals who are able to find more of an even pace in their work and continue to produce work Monday to Friday, eight hours a day, whereas the ADHD usually doesn't do that. It might be like here's like the inspiration strikes and suddenly you can produce eight hours work in two hours, but then you need to rest for six hours watching Netflix to compensate.
Flic Taylor :Yes, absolutely. And when we're working in systems that you know very nine to five and being in a box, there isn't necessarily that recognition for that piece, and then it's very easy to get stuck in a what's wrong with me because, let's face it, if you have grown up with an ADHD brain and it hasn't been diagnosed, you would have learned as a kid to mask and you know function within these systems.
Michaela Thomas :Yeah, absolutely At a great personal cost. So masking is a great thing that you bring that up. So masking means that we're essentially suppressing who we really are, hiding the neurodivergent brain so that we will try to fit in quote, unquote in society. But essentially it's very costly, is draining of energy and it might mean that you're having to kind of watch the game, watching what people are doing, how they're talking, what are they saying, what they're doing, and it might mean that you suppress things that could actually be quite calming and neutralizing for you. So it might be that people then suppress their fidgeting or so called stimming, things we might need to do to stimulate our brains. It might mean that you, you know, like you've stopped gesturing and then you sort of like a must it still or is rude to say these things, or it must not speak up in the meeting, like wait your turn. Michaela, you know the amount of meetings I had like I shall not say anything today, like I do not have to share all my ideas there, like this makespace for other people and I'm not because I'm rude or self centered or because I I think my ideas are better than anyone else's is just because I'm passionate and when I get drawn into something I'm like, oh, this is really exciting. It's then becomes harder to like sit with that self control, and self control also goes down over the course of the day. So when people have been masking all day long, sitting in meetings where you expected to listen, even though you're really bored, sitting in meetings, that could have been an email reading, emails that could have not been sent. When we have this sort of sense of, I have no tolerance for this, this crap. When you do that across the day, when you come to the end of the afternoon or the evening, when you come home, you have run out of all your students, you've run out of all your capacity because you've been masking all day or trying to do these compensatory strategies and that can essentially be very costly in terms of energy.
Michaela Thomas :And it's very common for me to hear that you know ADHD women who use a lot of social skills at work or have you know the needs of dependents, like caring responsibilities for children or aging parents. At the end of the day they're like Don't touch me, Don't talk to me, I just want to be alone, I just want to watch TV or I just want to go to sleep and I can feel like they're so overstimulated because, essentially, their brain is undestimulated and that means that they feel overwhelmed and, at the end of the day, they've got nothing left. So this is why it's so important to learn to watch this, to learn to almost like assess your own levels of energy, much like a diabetic would prick a finger to see the glucose levels to see what action they need to take. We need to do that as ADHDers, to see where's my energy Now.
Michaela Thomas :Do I need to recharge? How do I plug myself in right now? Like I would plug my phone in to let that charge, unless I would forget. This is why I carry an energy bank with me, like one of those power banks, because I often forget to charge my phone. But now I have a system of having a power bank with me. So then, what's the equivalent of that? Like? How can I have a power bank with me to fuel up my own energy, knowing that I will get this wrong? I will forget to look after myself because I've been caring too, too, too strongly for others or giving too freely. So, knowing that, with an inner wisdom, a compassionate sense of wisdom around yourself, knowing your tendencies, knowing your patterns that self awareness is everything when it comes to managing ADHD and preventing ADHD burnout.
Flic Taylor :Oh, and so empowering as well, Because, okay. So what led you down the path to being assessed and diagnosed?
Michaela Thomas :I've been wondering about that for a few years. I thought about it when I was pregnant with my second child as well. She's now two in a bit and, honest to God, the paperwork was too complicated for me to proceed with it at the time, which I thought was quite indicative in itself the fact that I just couldn't get myself organised to pursue the assessment. And then I thought, actually that's probably not the best reflection of who I am and how my brain functions normally when I'm pregnant, because hormonially things are different. So I decided to leave it until after I've had the baby. So I pursued diagnosis about a year ago and, yeah, I just had to have a fresh start with someone else who made the paperwork route more accessible, someone who helped with organising the like. Everything was sort of just laid out for me, and the reason why I went for it then was because I finished breastfeeding my second child and that means that estrogen levels are dropping and estrogen is very important for the ADHD brain for women of my age, now just turned 40. So I was 39, I was postnatal, wasn't sleeping very well, estrogen levels were dropping and that meant that I got horrendous brain fog. I was struggling to concentrate, and I know that these things have been with me since my whole life. I always had a dreamy mind, but I obviously now know that that dreamy mind is the same mind that's able to conjure up podcast episodes and write a book and create things. So it's a kind of a blessing. And I want to say blessing in a curse because I don't want to think of my ADHD as a curse. It's just part of who I am. But go back a year ago obviously didn't know that. So I've had quite the journey of self-acceptance and self-awareness and training my brain to try to function as optimally as possible with this.
Michaela Thomas :But I've known for many years that I have a differently wired brain anyway, because I was part of Mensa when I was about 20. I joined Mensa, which means it's you know, I have a differently wired brain and says it's giftedness. So that means that not only am I ADHD, I'm also gifted, which means it's referred to as twice exceptional. You're exceptional in two ways. So I've already known that that means I'm a little bit of that kind of nasty professor vibe that sometimes I can come up with the most intricate ideas and they're not effectively time-issue laces, they metaphorically. So I've known that that's a kind of a strength and a weakness to my life, but having the diagnosis has meant that I was able to put everything in place and understand why I had been perfectionistic, why I had been harder myself.
Michaela Thomas :It made sense with a shame. It made sense of how I look to other people, how I need connection with other people, why I'm very energized by that interaction with others and equally why I then sometimes have to rest and lie in a dark room after I've had interaction with others. So it's completely revolutionized the way I see self-care and self-compassion and how I run my business, how I do my parenting. It's conveniently changed the way I relate with my husband, obviously as a couple therapists as well, and I wrote a book on how to develop love and compassion for yourself and your partner. So all of that just basically fell into place and it kind of made sense.
Michaela Thomas :And coming back to what you said earlier, that it's so difficult for the neurodivergent brain to function in these systems that require the nine to five and must sit at your desk and can't pace around when you have a conversation on the phone etc. All of these pressures and requirements is what causes an increase for ADHD is to be entrepreneurs. Three to four hundred percent more likely to be an entrepreneur. Because you call you on shots, you run their own show.
Flic Taylor :Yes, absolutely. I'm just thinking. I can remember a friend chatting to her. She has her own business and she said honestly, flick, I could never work for anyone, I can only work myself. I'm just thinking of that friend now, thinking I get it, I get it. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. I'm listening to you and I'm thinking oh my gosh, you are, you've like the greatest flag and are the biggest advocate of people getting their diagnosis, because it just shifts everything. The ripple effect is huge in how you go about your day now, about your life.
Michaela Thomas :It is, and because it's, it's understanding the brain wiring that was laid down for you, not by you. It means that we can finally step away from this perpetual cycle of shaming and criticizing ourselves for things they're not our faults, oh.
Flic Taylor :Gosh, I think anyone listening needs to let that land.
Michaela Thomas :Yeah, that's why I paused. I don't normally pause, I need to keep talking normally, but that needs to sink in really, that this brain, that is not your fault. There's not your fault if you have ADHD or if you are ADHD. There's a lot of conversations about that, about when we think about identity, as this is a helpful thing. I was previously taught that we would have the person first and the description of any condition second.
Michaela Thomas :But we know in the neurodivergent community say, not saying a person with autism, but actually an autistic person is what feels, more More affirmative, more accepting. So that's why this is a constant learning. So I might say things in this conversation that in five years from now I'll look back and like cringe, because how could I speak about it like that? Like when my first awareness came of of Autism, it was called as perjury syndrome and we don't say that anymore. So, or ASD, we don't say that either. We now say a autistic person. So this same thing about ADHD that we will be continually learning because there are so many things that are not known yet. And unfortunately, I'm sorry to bring in the P word of the patriarchy, but it's because a lot of the data we have has not been looking at the female experience of ADHD. This is why, currently, the average age of being diagnosed with ADHD is 36. Is it five? You know, 37?
Flic Taylor :Wow right, I'm not surprised, though I'm saying wow, but really, this all makes bloody sense, doesn't it?
Michaela Thomas :Yeah, but it's. It's not just because of lack of awareness, it's also because life gets more complex for females from that age, both from an internal point of view what's happening in our bodies but also from an external point of view. You think about the average 36 year old. She may or may not have children, which increases the number of spoons we have to use up every day. You know the, the decisions that are involved in mothering, the level of attention you have to use, especially if you have more than one child.
Michaela Thomas :I noticed a big difference for me in my ADHD brain when I went from one child to two and I have to like split my attention, like back and forth, meeting their respective needs. It feels like it's it's never enough. Um, so that hormonal side of things as well, that you know. Women are getting closer to peremonopause or there might be postnatal. So we have a whirlwind of of hormones going on in our body and the changes in estrogen, progesterone and testosterone can also be involved in that. So that's why it makes sense for it to be coming later in life. Some women feel it more when they've gone through, you know, adolescence, so that's where their signs start to notice, because they're, you know, going through puberty, some women or girls or women, feel it more when they've Become pregnant, noticing that when the postnatal period they then maybe struggle with. Postnatal depression or anxiety or birth trauma is also more represented in ADHD women than it is neurotypical women. So we may not even be about postnatal depression. It might actually be that you are so overwhelmed by life when you're becoming a parent and I really struggled with the first year of parenthood Because I had a child who was, you know, had lots of extra challenges, and I speak about that in my book and all my podcasts as well.
Michaela Thomas :And knowing now that you know I have the neurodivergent brain of having ADHD, I kind of Send a heartfelt wish back to that version of me, the 32 year old version of me. I had she just known the, you know, had I been able to inform the midwives and the children's centre and all of that that I needed that support, I would have thought very differently about, you know, the impact on my brain from not having sleep, sleep at all. My first child didn't sleep for four years and knowing now actually how, how important it is for my ADHD brain to sleep, there's a lot of things I wish I could go back and say, look, you're doing the best you can. It's not your fault, you're, you know you're a great mother and you're having a really hard time, and so it's your child. So, obviously, we know that neurodivergent runs in families, so that you are statistically more likely to have a child who is ADHD, autistic or both.
Michaela Thomas :So often I see that as a couple therapists as well that when people come and they're they've noticed that their child has difficulties, they're going through assessment, they start to look to themselves and maybe even look to their partner, because neurodivergent people are more likely to couple up with other neurodivergent people. Wow, okay, so I'll drop that one. That that's thinking as well. So now everyone's like, oh my goodness, what about my, my partner? And starting to look at their signs as well.
Flic Taylor :Fascinating, oh my goodness. So when someone comes to you, michaela um, and says all you know, I am curious. I'd like to pursue this path. How do you kind of help guide them?
Michaela Thomas :Well, it's a delicate one, because I think this is powerful information that people need to feel that they've consenting to do. I want this information, do I want to invite this into my life right now? And Because I also know of the the initial unraveling that comes with diagnosis. If you don't meet criteria for diagnosis, what does that mean to you Then? How do you explain these behaviors? If you do meet criteria for diagnosis, what does that mean to you? And it's almost like we need to facilitate for a six to twelve month period of grief and rebuilding of yourself after diagnosis.
Michaela Thomas :This is why I built the ADHD club, you know, for I love Lincoln at the club for the last girls the girls who weren't, you know, spotted the ones who got to 39, like I did, where life has got more complex. So I obviously got sidetracked and I forgot to say the second part of that. It's obviously the life is more complex, not just hormonially and what's going on in within you, but also Siniority. Look at the women, you know, who are sort of mid to late 30s, early 40s. We're in the most senior positions we we have in our career. We might have, you know, the sandwich generation of young children and aging parents. Life is just flipping hard when you are our age, so then no wonder that that's when the symptoms come.
Michaela Thomas :It doesn't mean that Everyone is a little bit ADHD these days. It doesn't mean that it's a question of just having stolen focus, to quote Johanna Hari, who's been widely debated. Yes, our focus is stolen by all the smartphones, but yes, we also have different Neurological wiring that makes that focus even more stolen for some of us, who are then grossly addicted To these things that give us dopamine. Hits like Instagram, candy crush or whatever it is that you do on your phone that you pump it down. So have a good think about that. Is that word all really serving you, or is that something that's, you know, taking up too much time in your life? Oh, such a good point.
Flic Taylor :Such a good point because it it's interesting. I mean, I'm sure you're the same, because I know you work with people who are burnt out and you have the burnout to burn bright program and and I think, like it must be. It's hard for people to slow down, isn't it? And you know people are like what's wrong with me? Why can't I slow down? And I think you're speaking to this so beautifully as to there's a thread here for people to follow.
Michaela Thomas :Yeah, absolutely, and you know you said what do we do if someone wants to pursue this diagnosis? Well, you can go through an assessment, and I built my assessment service to be more inclusive and helpful in the sense of Understanding yourself compassionately. You can go and see someone for far less money than you pay me for one hour. They quickly run through some criteria. You will feel like it's a very medical interview and then like, right, okay, yes, you meet criteria for ADHD, and then like them. What so? What does that mean?
Michaela Thomas :For like decades of learning I've had in my life and your, your world will be cracked wide open when this happens. It's it starts to. It's almost like akin to people going through a 12 step program where you don't have to go back to people in your life that you've heard to make amends. I found myself doing that the other day when I messaged my first ever boyfriend I had from when I was 16 to 17 Such a sweetheart, you know, the best experience you can have into, like puppy love and I messaged him and said How's life? You know, like we're now 40 and I wanted to just, you know, tell you I have ADHD and I'm sorry for the things I did when we were 16. He was like that's all right, I've survived life Anyway. But that sense of the grief period I mentioned the, the acceptance period that when everything is kind of falling into place it doesn't just feel good.
Michaela Thomas :So I think it's irresponsible to have assessment services where we just go through criteria like do I have this or do I not have this? Am I ADHD or am I not? Is what does that then mean and how do we sit with it and what are your Support systems and how can you work with this differently? So we have this. They do assessment, coaching, but also therapy, because sometimes this is also related to traumas we've had in our life. Sometimes we've been humiliated because of how our experiences showed up for our life we have been taken advantage of or we've been over backwards for people with that, people pleasing that we have lots of stuff to now heal. We maybe have had failed relationships that we wonder why did that not go right? We unfortunately know that ADHD is more likely to divorce than the neurotypical person. So there's a lot of healing to do.
Flic Taylor :I was thinking, oh, Michaela, thank you, because I just know this is going to really land. For certain people it's going to be, you know, a game changer.
Michaela Thomas :So, and that's kind of why I'm so passionate about doing the burnout prevention of how, why I coined the group coaching program Burn Bright. I actually hadn't even received my diagnosis, but I started looking at who was coming my way and amongst all the perfectionism, procrastination, people, policing, burnout, stress, anxiety, overthinking, overwhelmed all of these things were coming my way. I was realizing that lots of the women who were coming to my way for help with perfectionism also had been a lost girl.
Flic Taylor :Yeah, absolutely. I love listening to your recent episodes on and you talk about the lost girl and the lost girl club, and something that I just think, oh is when you talk about the lost girl. She was, you know. She grew up feeling like she was too much and then she also wasn't enough, and I'm like, oh my goodness, like how many of us felt that way.
Michaela Thomas :Yeah, the feeling of being a bit extra and feeling like I can't quite fit in, I'm not doing the right things or not saying the right things. And to kind of borrow Brené Brown's research around vulnerability and belonging, I think the biggest lesson I've learned with the ADHD-ness now is that the more I am vulnerable and disclosing that to the right people, the more I find connection and belonging with people because they're like oh, come this way, we like you and I almost like how. This is a criteria and that almost anyone who I really gel with I'm like you must be in a religion. If you're liking me, you know it's almost like a criteria in itself. And having just had, you know, an experience of solar traveling to Vietnam on what I called my spacious adventure I just came back on Monday this week oh, I did, yeah, I did, I don't know if you've seen, that on social media.
Michaela Thomas :But yeah, I did. I gave that as a gift to myself for, you know, to continue this kind of progress of healing. And having turned 40, it was my husband had been saving money for a while for me to be able to travel away. So he had the kids. I went away and, oh my God, the dopamine of constantly seeing new environments, meeting new people, eating new food yeah, it's, I am. Yeah.
Michaela Thomas :So that's led me to plan a retreat in Thailand not Thailand retreat in Vietnam next year for just finding the sense of stillness and how hard it is for people to come to slowing down. So that's why, that's why I work with women in at least six months period in Burmbride. Some people will renew and come for another round because it just takes that long to layer up these approaches where you realize, oh, this is why I can't slow down, this is why I resist meditation or go into yoga, or because my brain just bounces around, I can't lie still on the mat, I just don't like it. And you know I've been practicing meditation and mindfulness and yoga and you know, being in CBT therapy and like all of these things I've been doing since I came into psychology as a 19 year old. So my brain has been scaffolded already by these practices, by these tools in a way that other people who are not psychologists, haven't had, and I dread to think how chaotic my brain would be had I not had all of those things.
Flic Taylor :Right. But I'm listening to this and I'm thinking, oh my goodness, you're the perfect person to come to and to and have kind of walk alongside you on this path. If you're, if you're exploring this because you get it, you get it.
Flic Taylor :You've been there and you, the compassion that comes from you. It's beautiful, because it's so hard to when you spent decades just sizing yourself here in the criticism of others. You're too much, like, what are you doing? Calm down. And and then there's there's the frustration of, in some circles people are like, oh, my god, you're too much. It's amazing. You know who am I, where am I, where are my people? So to be able to come to you and have them, you know, hold their hand, walk alongside them, it's so powerful.
Michaela Thomas :And I think that's that's really true. Then, like, who are my people? And even knowing that when you are with your quote unquote people that even even too much of a good thing can be too much that when you are with people who are like-minded and you're like I'm busting off this and loving it, you might still find a bit of a hangover the next day. I sometimes refer to that as the hyper focus hangover. You've just been really in the zone of loving it and then you still need to plan in the recovery afterwards. So when I go to say, deliver a talk, I did a talk in Oxford recently for, you know, for the Oxford MBA program, talking about resilience, and I was loving it so much I was on a panel, I was giving my most witty self.
Michaela Thomas :On the next day I was like so I'd planned in to have an overnight stay. My husband was coming with, he was driving me to this event, because driving is not great for me. I treat this overwhelmed and driving into Oxford it would not be possible. So he came with me, drove and then we stayed at a really nice hotel afterwards and yeah, that means that it's into my profits because I booked a hotel for this.
Michaela Thomas :You know, one hour talk I was doing, but I don't care, because that that feeling of being well is worth so much more to me than the money of taking home the whole fee. So I've learned that over the years that I need different things to be well in my business and in my life than the neurotypical person. And now that I'm no longer struggling against that and just have surrendered into it, I'm so much more fulfilled and content Because I know the brain I have is not my fault, but it's my responsibility to meet the needs that my brain has. So that's the bit that I think takes six to 12 months to come to that realization and then to allow someone to show you the ropes, to allow someone to show you the compassionate tools you need to let yourself be well and happy with the brain that you got.
Flic Taylor :Oh my gosh, michaela, I'm like, I'm actually finding this quite emotional. That was so lovely that your husband drove you and supported you, but the fact that you're able to go I'm doing this it's going to be amazing, I'm going to love it. And so, to set myself up, I'm going to have a hotel. He's going to drive me. Like, did you ask him, did he offer? Like it's just, it changes everything, doesn't it, when you have that awareness and knowledge. It empowers you, and so things can only go for the best.
Michaela Thomas :It can only go for the best because it also helps your relationship. When I am well, my marriage is going well. When I am well, my I am my much better mother. When I am not well, I'm. When I'm depleted, when I am near burnout, I'm not happy and I'm not well and nobody benefits from that. Nobody benefits from my burnout.
Michaela Thomas :And if you being crass about it in a cynical way, I run my own business. The government doesn't benefit from me not being well, because then I don't generate the same amount of revenue and then don't pay the same tax. I like paying tax. I come from Sweden like we pay our tax and it helps. There's another way for me to be able to contribute to society. So when I'm earning well because the business is thriving, because I am thriving, I'm also having another way of contributing to society because I pay taxes. So, yeah, I don't like to do my tax return, but that's that's why I have support system around that. My accountant does that.
Michaela Thomas :But jokes aside, I think it's about understanding yourself really intimately, compassionately. That self-awareness piece is everything, because when you understand that, you can also then manage your energy and not just manage your time to think about what do I need to be well. How will I thrive this week? It means you can start to think about your cyclical patterns. If I'm talking to people who have a period or have a cycle, it might mean that you think about the different weeks of the month and who you are.
Michaela Thomas :In my case, I have PMDD as well, which means it's pre-medical dysphoria, pre-medical I can't. I can't even say it now PMDD, pre-medical dysphoria disorder, which about 50 to 60% even of ADHD has. So that when we then understand that link with our hormones, I can then plan my business accordingly. I don't do really big stretchy talks in the PMT week because that's what I need to really conserve all my energy to not be a horrible human being to my children, right, so I can't use up for the spoons at work in that week because I really want to be the mother I want to be, and not in a perfect way, not in a never make mistakes, never fail, never lose your shit, just in a.
Michaela Thomas :I deserve to be well, the kind of way I deserve to not feel awful as well. So that's why I've do all of these different things, why I've designed that kind of the well-being rhythm I need to have is essentially a way of managing my condition and people will probably come at me for saying condition because there's a lot of discussions in the neurodivergent community about that but say this differently wired brain I have. What is it that I need to look after that much like we would show diabetic people what they need to be well in terms of exercise, nutrition and self care. So that's how I see compassionate care for the ADHD brain.
Flic Taylor :Oh, so lovely. Because it's when you burn out. You know I'm sure you feel the same is that initial period. If you know, you just have to hit the pause button. But it's not just a case of lying bed for a couple of weeks. Watch Netflix, eat multi, multi-seize Let I tried it. It doesn't work. You have to get foundational pieces and I think that's the work of burnout that people don't necessarily expect, but when they're navigating, that it's. It's important to have people like you coaching, like just that kind of insight to help them navigate it, because it's tricky. You've been carrying these patterns for decades.
Michaela Thomas :You can't off like a light switch, can you? You can't. And Russell Barkley is a world leading expert on ADHD. He uses a metaphor that I'm going to steal because I love it. He talks about how, when people have a physical disability say someone who's a wheelchair user and they might need ramp for having accessibility into a home right, they might have these physical adaptations to help things be accessible for them. We wouldn't say after six months to that person I'm going to take away the ramp now because you've probably you know, you've learned how to use this and you've internalized this ramp and you don't need it anymore. You wouldn't say that that's madness, because they will continue to use the wheelchair, so they continue to need that accessibility.
Michaela Thomas :With hidden disabilities like ADHD, the assumption is that we somehow have learned stuff like what are you just doing to do a time management course at work, and then you've learned to be a punctual, so then you don't need that anymore. Well, we can't internalize the ramp. We still have the brain that we have and it continues to need the scaffolding. This is something I used to see in therapy where sometimes people had repeated episodes of therapy where they felt such shame and sense of failure when they were coming back again for more input, and that is because it's really difficult for us to internalize the ramp. You probably do need to have ongoing support.
Michaela Thomas :Maybe you come back for an episode and, like I really want to focus on my self criticism in this episode or next episode of input, you might feel I really want to work on some healthier habits that I can stick to, that don't become a perfectionistic and like I want to learn how to look after myself better with sleep, you know, eating good, nutritious food, drinking enough water, which we know ADHD is really stronger with and there is no shame or failure in that.
Michaela Thomas :And that is why I love working in private practice as well, because I can assess based on need and give based on need, not saying to someone you've had your 12 sessions, next, I can't give you any more because it's someone else's turn. I can work with people as long as they need, when they need, and it's all based on the function of what will this unlock for you? What is this support going to give you? And not in a sense of I'm keeping you with me, because my job is to teach people how to fish and not just give them a fish for the day, but equally, knowing that the evidence base suggests that when people get to come from maintenance sessions of therapy or coaching to boost what they're doing and keep them on track, we're much more likely to keep things like burnout, depression, anxiety and stress at bay.
Flic Taylor :Yeah, and it's so important. And, as you say, the ripple effect is huge. You know, when we look after ourselves, you know we're better parents, we're better partners, we're just. Everyone benefits from it. And it's so important because I think so many women are. We've just been raised in a society that is, you know, self care is selfish and you know it's very yeah, it's just very self centered to be focusing on yourself like this, but it's just so wrong.
Michaela Thomas :Yeah, I mean again, this is the pressure of the patriarchy for you and this is what I'm sort of writing on in my second book about perfectionism is that it's a sense that this expectation of being a good girl and that wiring, that narrative that we have that you shouldn't speak up, you shouldn't, you shouldn't ask for your needs to be met.
Michaela Thomas :That means it's really difficult for when we, when I'm then training people in therapy or coaching, to be more compassionate, it's really hard because it goes against the grain of our society. So it's not just about an internal pressure that we have of high standards for I need to be perfect or I need to act a certain way, I need to always be control, I don't make mistakes, I can't fail. It's also the external expectation we have that we know is more unforgiving towards women than it is towards men. So whether that's me getting on a bit of a soapbox there, but I need that to be said because that is also part of the compassion piece. That is not your fault. It's kind of feeling less shame for the fact that you are self critical. It's feeling less ashamed of the fact that you are a people pleaser because society has built you that way Society benefits from when you are depleted.
Flic Taylor :Yeah, it's not your fault. I think it's so important we say that in regards to burnout and ADHD. I think that is the one kind of thing people who experience burnout, who are going down that path of dying, is that you're just, you're so used to being anchored to the what do I do wrong, like what? Why? You know that self blame is huge.
Michaela Thomas :Yeah, and that's why the resilience piece is one that I struggle with and why I spoke a lot about self compassion when I did this talk recently, because resilience can also be another shit. Stick to be yourself with, say, I just wasn't resilient enough. You know, if I had been more resilient and sturdy or robust and these other words we use, then this work environment that I was in I wouldn't have burnt out. And look at these other people they have not burnt out. And I grappled with that myself, like why was it that I had to leave the NHS services I was working in and now work in private practice, when I see some of my former colleagues still work in that way? And it's not really relevant because that comparison is, you know, it's unfair to compare and it leaves you in despair.
Michaela Thomas :Essentially, when we compare our brains and what we need to thrive to what other people need, it's like comparing different plants. You know, some of us need more water, some of us need more sunlight. There's such certain requirements, different requirements that we have. So we're not. It's not a deficit, it's a difference. We're not defective, we are different. And in order to be well, we have to accept that difference and think what do I need? What's the kind of compassionate soil and sunlight and nurture that this plant needs, that the plant that I am, and I know that I am thriving in blossoming Now that I've been running my own company for the past decade and I wasn't the same way when I worked in the NHS it just wasn't the right place for me.
Michaela Thomas :And despite knowing all the good work I've done and I will always be grateful and I will always remember all the patients whose lives I've touched or moved or saved, even and I would always leave a mark on me let's pave the path to where I am now but I just couldn't do that work If it was taking such a personal expense on me, because what good could I do in the world if I burnt out? Because you know from personal experience how long that journey to recovery can be. It's not like you're saying two weeks off and I'm just going to go. You know going to go and have a couple of weeks holiday and I'll be restored. You know we're talking about. You know the shortest I've seen this baby three months, but in reality more like two years of work.
Flic Taylor :Yes, absolutely. I can remember when I first burnt out, that was my daily Google search. How long did it take to recover? How long does it? And yeah, I was two years.
Michaela Thomas :Yeah, yeah, depends on the reason for it and obviously, if this ongoing difficulties, say in the workplace, if that environment is a big part of it.
Flic Taylor :Yeah, foundation for sure, because I think that's the thing I've experienced and other people I know have experienced you. Still, you have to look at the circle around you and that's when you're like, okay, are we aligned? Yeah, absolutely.
Flic Taylor :It's not easy again, which is why it's. You know, having support is really good, because those are very difficult conversations and thoughts to be having. And yeah, and as you said you hit on this, there's a grief element to it because if you think my gosh, this circle, I don't know if this, this does not serve me, this isn't, doesn't reflect on who I am and doesn't align and so that circle, you find that naturally people will fall away and but there's a real grief period to that.
Michaela Thomas :Yeah, there is an adjustment as well, of knowing that if you want to come back to life now, that life needs to look different. Because that's you know the Einstein is supposed to have said the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. And I've seen people when they come through their third, fourth, fifth, but I pursued and finally realize, okay, I've now hit rock bottom so many times, some things got to give and if nothing changes, then nothing changes. You will have the same results and and knowing again. Keep coming back to the issue piece, because this is obviously not just for ADHD.
Michaela Thomas :I see people who have repeated burner episodes, who do not know the version, of course. I see that repeated pattern of burner episodes more so in ADHD because it's so hard to have that interoceptive awareness of when you've had enough, when is it too much for you? Because even when you feel that you are too much and you also don't still feel at the same time, like I said, like you never enough then you need to do more and be more and have more. And yeah, enoughness is a really triggering concept for the people I work with who are perfectionist extenders enough feels like failure Enough feels really triggering. It feels like, if I then say I'll just do good enough, it feels like admitting that you weren't, that you weren't good enough, that you couldn't cut it. So the phrase of like you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen as a way to put blame on people who get burnt out, yeah well, if you can't stand the heat is because someone needs to adjust the temperature and often that isn't done centrally and we then look at people as expendable and they just get thrown out, saying next, who's the next person we can abuse? So this is why it's so important to have that awareness of the internal pressures you're under, your own high expectations, perfectionistic beliefs, your brainwiring, and the external pressure the environment you're in. What heat is that putting on you? Because otherwise, if it is a toxic environment and it's nothing to do with your internal pressure, etc.
Michaela Thomas :You move environment right and you feel that you were able to heal. We can't blame a blood like a flower for not blossoming if it's in a toxic environment like this is not going to be conducive to growth, right? So we then move that plant to a different pot with new nurturing soil that, where it can, can thrive and grow. But what if the soil you're bringing with you, what if the roots you bring with you? What if all your experiences, all the ways that you are wired, means that when you planted in a different pot, you take the burn out behavior with you?
Michaela Thomas :That's what I often say when people have this internal pressure as well and that means that they go into a new environment and they create that toxic environment right there as well. And that's not saying that there's any blame, it's not shaming, it's not saying you are not resilient enough, it's not saying you caused your own burnout. I'm saying that this is a very difficult, complex ecosystem of Reactions between your inner world and your outer world, and you need to take the time to understand that. This is why burnout, or perfectionism or working me at ADHD cannot be a quick fix. I just refuse to work with things in a very short-term way when it comes to this level of complexity.
Flic Taylor :Oh, my gosh, this is so good to hear and so good for other people to hear, you know, because there's a lot to, there's a lot of pieces on the table, yeah oh my gosh.
Michaela Thomas :My cat is so, so good to talk to you about this, because I just my heart. That wish for anyone listening is that If you are almost, like, allergic to compassion or allergic to stillness, like, don't beat yourself up for it. There is a reason why this is hard and we can start by being compassionate to ourselves. About how hard it is to be compassionate to ourselves, it's a bit meta, but if you start there by saying gosh, goodness me, it's really understandable that I'm having a hard time with Not giving myself a hard time because I've been raised that way or I have a brain that's maybe actually Half empty glass half empty.
Michaela Thomas :We know that the brain in ADHD has a negativity bias where you might be looking at the world in a half empty way. It's not because you're, you know, a pessimistic person who's not fun to be around. It's not your fault. But meeting someone who understands that and gives you the ropes, shows you the ropes, can make all the difference. And this is why I created the ADHD club, for you know, we're having a compassionate community for these lost girls to be able to talk to other people. I'm like you know, let all of our stuff just hang out, the fact that you like the stuff you do day in and day out with ADHD unless you think that other people can do this like adulting, and I don't seem to be able to and Then the stuff you overthink and the stuff you worry about, knowing that there are other women there You'd be like, yeah, yeah, I know, I know, I've got that one?
Flic Taylor :Yes, exactly, that's the power of community, isn't it? It's so important and we're so hard-wired for community, aren't we?
Michaela Thomas :Yeah, we are. We need connection to you to survive. We know that loneliness is a bigger killer than hunkardium vascular disease. So if you feel alone sitting with this, you feel ashamed sitting with this. We know that you're more likely to feel depressed.
Michaela Thomas :So, having a space where you can drop the mask or you can drop the shame, that you can be vulnerable because vulnerability feeds connection, even if that is like five percent vulnerability like I have women in my band bright group coaching program who are Experimenting like I'm just gonna be five percent vulnerable and show something and then noticing that they can then receive kindness and care, compassion coming in, noticing that nothing bad happens when you're vulnerable in the right spaces Then you can be brave in those spaces and notice that people can then accept you and you feel like you have a place to belong. I feel like as a 40-year-old woman that I have the best friendships I've ever had in my life because those friends accept me for who I am. I don't have to be like, oh no, don't say that or don't be so extra. It's about finding the right people. I can talk to you for for hours and then time passes. Then you realize, oh yeah, I didn't have to mask. I could just be myself.
Flic Taylor :I didn't have to mask or I didn't have to like, dampen myself down or dilute myself Absolutely. Oh my gosh, it's so. It's just a beautiful feeling when you begin to have a circle around you of people that love you for who you are and there's no more like Criticism or questioning, because you know we already do that ourselves. We don't need any help.
Michaela Thomas :We do that all the time and we have that rejection sensitivity where we would be on the lookout for rejection even before it happens, because it physically hurts. Rejection or RSD or rejection sensitivity, dysphoria is something that affects the ADHD brain where, if you look at it the brain in a brain scanner and you Give someone a negative comment or do something that makes them feel rejected, the part of the brain that controls pain, that center, lights up in the scanner so that when you are Actually emotionally hurt or feeling rejected, it physically hurts for ADHD. Yeah, oh my, it's modifying. This is why we like cringe. I can't cope with this, and this is. It explains a lot of avoidance patterns people have as well.
Flic Taylor :Yeah, it knocks you for six, and then you're like what's wrong with me? Yeah, everyone hates me. Goodness, wow. Oh yeah, we're gonna have to do a part two of this because let's, let's hear from the listeners.
Michaela Thomas :So you know, let us know what you want us to talk more about, what. What is this conversation has brought? Commerce like, oh my god.
Flic Taylor :For you, absolutely. This has just been incredible. I know, oh my gosh, I know it's gonna really Help cause a beautiful shift for some people listening.
Flic Taylor :I hope so, oh so, thank you. Thank you so much for your time, but just your lovely Compact. I've always found your voice very soothing, but just your lovely compassion because it's just we need to remember it's we need that permission piece and people, don't we? And that role model and I think just you sharing the story of you booking a hotel and then your husband driving you and everything's setting up for success, everything's setting up for me a really positive it. Just that role modeling alone, yeah, will cause a shift for some people.
Michaela Thomas :It does, and that's why I've sort of done a lot of work on myself as well. I think I like the phrase of you know, we can speak from a scar. We can speak from a scar, not from a wound. That whenever I do processing on my own, I don't think about when am I ready to share that? When am I ready to process that? When is it, you know, to draw and to open, and I can't process it, can't share it just yet.
Michaela Thomas :So that's why I sort of took, you know, time to cocoon on this and I wasn't speaking about ADHD, I was speaking about perfectionism. But it didn't feel right to my community to keep hiding that way, because then I was, you know, an accomplice in the masking, accomplice in the pressure. So speaking out about this, taking that vulnerability piece and saying, look, I have an ADHD brain. And it also means it makes it a lot easier for me to call in the right people to work with me, because then they already know they're not going to be surprised if I show up three minutes late on a zoom call and I'll do my very best not to. But it's like I did today. I was two minutes late for your conversation and I had the best of intentions to be here.
Flic Taylor :I didn't even register, didn't even register. I was quite upset here with my coffee, relaxing, getting all excited. Didn't even register, just goes to show, doesn't it?
Michaela Thomas :Yeah, but some people do. And it's like we. We often notice our own struggles a lot more than other people notice our struggles. That's the kind of thing of of Of self criticism as well, that we have such a strong spotlight of attention on our own flaws and other people don't really notice them to the same extent. But I think that's why being vulnerable and being open with who you are or does bring that sense of connection. And I know that I'm not everyone's cup of tea. You know there will be people who will not want to work with someone who's a neurodivergent therapist. That's fine, that's absolutely fine. I don't have to be everyone's cup of tea. This is kind of the lesson of through life, that I don't have to be everyone's cup of tea, but I am someone's tea party and that's how I am.
Flic Taylor :You, darling, that's how.
Michaela Thomas :I do things with my home retreats as well, when, when the bright women come to my home, I throw them a tea party, I take out my finest china and pamper them and look after them, because that's how I think of it. I am someone who stands there with tea in a croissant and like let me look after you. Because, you look after everyone else and nobody is looking after you. Yes, Absolutely.
Flic Taylor :Oh, my goodness, this was divine timing. I'm just thinking it's interesting when you were saying like it took you time and you don't want to share it straight away, because I definitely relate to that in the sense of you know, I've definitely experienced some things in my life with burnout, recovery and lots of shifts happening, all for the better. But you know big shifts in life and you know, I think I think it's so important to again not beat yourself up and when you're an entrepreneur or you know Self-employed and you think, oh, I must do Instagram, I've got to keep doing it. Actually, you know who are allowed to be human and go through this period. But I'm just listening and I'm thinking, oh, this is divine timing because we we started trying to plot this Podcast a couple of years ago and it just it's been a while yeah.
Flic Taylor :And last summer we were meant to, and something happened where I couldn't and I had to go back to England and there was a big, there was a big consequence of that too, and, oh my god, this is divine timing, this couldn't be any better.
Michaela Thomas :It really. So I take it you're throwing me in Vietnam for my retreat next year, then, oh my god, I'm like how is this one?
Flic Taylor :How does that affect that? I want a cup of tea with you in Vietnam.
Michaela Thomas :Let me give you my spacious adventure. There are so many two words for this year For myself is 2024. Is my spacious adventure? Like allowing myself to scratch the dopamine itch of like wanting to have stimulating, fun, exciting things, but doing it in a spacious way that feels like Sustainable, rather like more, more, more, more. It's like do something and then come back scaffolding a book, ending it basically like like I did for the the talk, go and give a Vibrant talk and then go relax in the sauna at the hotel afterwards, like it's. I constantly have to bookend things that way and that means I'm more likely to be well. So, yeah, my spacious adventure. And I just absolutely loved what I planned in Vietnam. So if anyone wants to have a planned route through Vietnam, then let me know. I'm also. I'm also a train travel agent, as you do. It's one of my many hyper focuses. I'm like, oh, shall I just do that too? I'm not a feather in the hat. Special fun that way, a bit extra. Like I said, Extra.
Flic Taylor :You know what my words for this year are bold and shine, because for so long I have been like I've got it, I'm too much. I've got a comment, I've got to sort myself out. I've got and I'm like Fuck it and nothing else You're not too much, you're not too much.
Michaela Thomas :You're just bold and shine.
Flic Taylor :Why can't I just be bloody me, fuck it. So that's, where am I?
Michaela Thomas :Oh my god, I'm coming to Vietnam. You were so you know you were so midlife clarity. In that sense, I know, if we can't do it in our fucking 40s, when are we doing it? When can we? I'm on it.
Flic Taylor :Yeah, not it. Yeah, oh, my gosh, michaela. Okay, so at the end of these amazing conversations oh, I'm so, thank you I've been asking my guest lighthearted quickfire questions. So On your dodgy, no very easy on your dodgy, tough days, do you opt for move your body or move the remote? Move your body, yeah.
Michaela Thomas :Yeah, get it out there. That's it. Yeah, you can't think your way out of it, you have to move your way out of it.
Flic Taylor :Oh, I love that you can't think your way out of it. You have to move your way out of it. The 50th might drop for this interview. Okay, bag of almonds or bag of malt teasers almonds.
Michaela Thomas :I love almonds, but I prefer almond butter. But yeah, Okay chocolate covered almonds, oh, chocolate covered almonds.
Flic Taylor :I love those. Oh um, ask for help or happy to hermit.
Michaela Thomas :Oh, I am unhappy about asking for help, but I also don't like to hermit, so I'm gonna have to say Ask for help.
Flic Taylor :I know it's a practice. I'm getting better, but more it doesn't come natural. Okay, and then what's the one self-compassionate thing you're gonna do today that your future self will thank you for?
Michaela Thomas :Going to sit down with my muse meditation, because I absolutely love it, oh lovely. So sitting down with it's a fantastic thing that tracks your brain waves, so you get to see that you get the dopamine of like seeing how calm was I and how many, how many little birds you get for all the times you were focused. So, yeah, I love it. So I'm gonna do that before I do the school run. Okay, amazing, oh, okay, let's thank you, thank you, thank you.
Flic Taylor :I'm gonna put in the show notes where everyone can find all of your stuff. And you know, this was just amazing.
Michaela Thomas :Thank you, it was so good to talk to you, hopefully you will come on to my pause purpose, play podcast next and we can continue the conversation of our burnout. I know, I know, I feel like, oh my gosh.
Flic Taylor :We're just scratching the surface of a few things, and anyone listening to you want more. Send you questions in and I'll. We'll do another round. We'll do another one.
Michaela Thomas :Two years or so On the beach in Vietnam, exactly Well. Thank you so much, flick. It's been amazing to talk to you today. Oh, okay, you take care. Thank you.
Flic Taylor :Thank you so much for listening to this episode of everyday burnout conversations. Take a peek at the show notes for any links to items discussed today. And if you want to continue the burnout conversation, you can find me on social media at flicktaylorite, or you can head to my website, flicktaylorcom, if you're curious and want to learn more on what it's like to work with me one to one. So in the meantime, rest up, don't forget to take good care of you and bye for now.