Everyday Burnout Conversations
Everyday burnout conversations is an honest podcast sharing the burnout experiences of others from all walks of life. Host, Flic Taylor, is a writer whose passion for burnout arose when she became a mental health writer dealing with severe burnout - and yes, the irony is not lost on her! Enjoy these weekly conversations sharing stories of surviving and thriving, all delightfully wrapped up in epic truths, compassion, and humour.
Everyday Burnout Conversations
Sophie Scott | The dance between high-functioning anxiety and burnout
In this everyday burnout conversation, I chat with Sophie Scott.
Sophie is an international keynote speaker, TEDx speaker, award-winning journalist, broadcaster, and author.
Our conversation unearths the paradox of burnout in fulfilling careers and why detecting the early warning signs is crucial. We tackle the complex dance between high-functioning anxiety and burnout, illuminating strategies to manage stress without sacrificing performance.
Listen to Sophie delve into the misconception that self-care is a luxury, instead positioning it as a vital component of a balanced and successful life. We confront imposter syndrome with the weapon of self-compassion and highlight the significance of nurturing a positive mental outlook.
Sophie helps us explore how morning rituals, redefined exercise, and intentional breaks not only counterbalance the intensity of work but also enhance our mental health.
To wrap up, we underline the importance of having an identity beyond your work, by embracing hobbies and engaging in activities that fortify us against the inevitable stressors of our careers.
Tune in for this heartening conversation with Sophie Scott, and walk away empowered to prioritize your health and happiness in the face of burnout.
Learn more about Sophie:
Sophie’s website
Sophie’s Instagram
Sophie’s new eBook
Beat High Functioning Anxiety Now - 10 Science-Backed Strategies To Transform Your Life
Sophie’s free resources
Sophie’s TEDx Talk
Fancy a little more burnout chat? Let's continue the conversation.
Find me on Instagram, TikTok and Facebook
Check out my latest work and discover how you can work one-to-one with me to tackle your burnout at flictaylor.com
Hello, I'm flick and you're listening to everyday burnout conversations. This is the honest podcast that shares burnout expertise, along with the stories of others from all walks of life that strive to inspire and help you manage and avoid burnout. Now, my passion for burnout and self care came about when I became a mental health writer who'd lost her own mental health to severe burnout, and it's an irony that's not lost on me. So get set to enjoy another great conversation, delightfully wrapped up in some wisdom, humor and great storytelling. Enjoy.
Flic Taylor :In this everyday burnout conversation, I chat with Sophie Scott. Sophie is an international keynote speaker, a TEDx speaker, an award winning broadcaster and an author. Sophie has spoken at the World Congress on positive psychology and she's an adjunct associate professor at the Notre Dame University Medical School, lecturing and science communication. Sophie's goal is to take the latest medical and neuroscience research and turn it into actionable techniques that can help us all lead happier and more productive lives. She's written three books Live, a Longer Life, road Test and Happiness, along with her latest ebook that's just launched, beat High Functioning Anxiety. Now, this is a great conversation, as Sophie not only shares her own experience of burning out doing the job she loved, but she also gives us so many gold nuggets of research and wisdom that can help us take those simple steps to reduce stress and anxiety in our day. I love it.
Flic Taylor :So, without further ado, here's a lovely Sophie Scott. Oh, sophie, thank you so much for joining me today. I've been following your Instagram account for a couple of years now. We kind of found each other and I just love the positive messages you put on there, and I really enjoyed your TED Talk on Burnout. Yes so, but anyone who's new to your story, I'd love you to share a little bit of your story. I'm going to start a little bit about your own experience of burnout, because what I think is so interesting as a really important message is that, oh my goodness, we can burn out doing something we love. We can burn out doing our dream job.
Sophie Scott:Exactly, and that's what my TED Talk was about, and because I think there's this misconception that you can only have burnout if you're in a job that you really hate or it's really, really toxic or you know you're not enjoying it. But I wanted to flip that on its head and explain that I had I did have a dream job. It was a job I had for over two decades as a broadcast journalist specializing in health. So I met amazing patients and I got to tell their stories and met amazing doctors and scientists and nurses and you know, really it was very intellectually challenging and creatively, you know, challenging and I loved it. It was great and but even not withstanding how good the job was, you can still I did end up burning out, and this was before the pandemic, so I it was just, even if it's something you love, and in some ways, if you do love your job, it can put you at more risk of burnout because you put so much of yourself into the work that you do, because you love it so much, so it doesn't seem like work and I really I don't like that phrase. You know, if you love your job, you'll never work a day in your life. You're still working, even if you do love your job. You know, and that that sort of phrase seems to suggest that it's okay to be working all the time because you know you love it so much.
Sophie Scott:And I think you and I know from our own burnout experiences that you know, constantly working, having your nervous system in that constant survival mode and fight or flight, and always go, go, go, you pay the price, even if it's a job that you love doing. And that's that was my experience and my head talk was basically saying you know, don't end up where I ended up and don't do what I do. Learn from my experience so that you don't end up where I was. Because, as you know and as you talk to people about all the time, burnout isn't something that you know. You just feel a bit tired and you can have a long weekend and then you'll feel better. You know you can be very physically and cognitively challenged and emotionally drained and it can take, it can be a long road back from severe burnout and I've had, as you have, I'm sure, people that you work with or contact you saying how debilitated their health has been as a result of burnout, and you know we want to avoid people getting to that point.
Flic Taylor :We really do, because it's really lonely and isolating, isn't it when you actually burn out, because it's one of those things that I feel it creeps in through the back door and you don't even notice it, like I was a mental health writer and I was like what, what, I'm in it.
Sophie Scott:And I think that I think that loneliness and isolation makes you feel like sometimes that there's something wrong with you. You know, like, why is everyone else coping? Why is everyone else seeming to be able to deal with this pressure? But I think, if you scratch the surface, for a lot of people around you that they are probably feeling the same as you, but you are the only, maybe the only one to to talk about it. And if you, you know I don't know what whether the same thing's happening in Canada and the UK, but certainly in Australia, what we're seeing with a lot of professions where there's a high rate of burnout, like healthcare, is that we're seeing lots and lots of people leaving healthcare because of burnout. So there are, there are GPs, there are nurses who are not able to sustain working in a job that they love and a career that they love because of burnout.
Flic Taylor :Yeah, and those incredible skill sets we're going to be losing, aren't we? I think we're not speaking enough about burnout. I mean, obviously, with your work, it's brilliant Because it's putting that message out there, but I still don't feel we're talking enough about it. It was interesting when I went to my GP here. She was saying, you know, she was helping me, kind of monitor me as I kind of recovered, and she was saying you know, a lot of people are going, which actually I was guilty of. They're going to see their doctor now going. Okay, I think I'm depressed, I think I have anxiety, I've got this, this and this and they're kind of going in almost diagnosing themselves and kind of shaping that kind of conversations and it doesn't leave much room for burnout. Hopefully it's changing now.
Sophie Scott:That's a really good point, and I don't know if you get this question when you do talks and workshops, but I often get it that people in the audience will ask me what is the difference between feeling burnout and feeling depressed? And what I say to them is that when you're feeling depression, you feel like you have nothing to look forward to. It's something that you wake up feeling that way. You might go to sleep feeling that way. So it's a 24 hour, seven day a week sense of nothing to look forward to, like you're in a dark hole, whereas burnout, because it is generally related to your work or even though it can be related to caregiving and other things, most of the research has been done in a work context.
Sophie Scott:So often with burnout, you might feel much better on the weekend, say, for example, you might feel good on Saturday.
Sophie Scott:Saturday night you do something, but then Sunday creeps around and then you get what people call the Sunday scaries, where you start to think about oh God, I've got to go to work tomorrow, and that starts to creep into your sense of well-being and positivity.
Sophie Scott:And so that's a sign that burnout is an issue, because it's really related to how you're feeling your relationship, to how you're feeling about going back into that workplace, that sense of pressure you might be feeling, or overwhelming responsibility and lack of support to do the work that you want to do, and so I think that's a really good way of differentiating the two, even though, having said that, when you are in burnout, you can have flow on depression as a result, particularly because if people are in a career that they love, for example, and they're not able to do that at the same capacity, then they can start to feel depressed about that. But they're not depressed about everything and they're not feeling like there's nothing to look forward to. They're not feeling that sense of withdrawing from their usual hobbies and activities and things that they used to enjoy doing, which are the classic signs of a sort of more overwhelming and bigger depression that people might be suffering. So I think that that's helped me on that definition and that distinction.
Flic Taylor :Yeah, that's such a good point you make there. That's brilliant. It's interesting because I think one of the missing jigsaw puzzle pieces here with burnout is you just people don't have that self-compassion with themselves. I know, I certainly didn't. That was definitely not on the table for me. And when you don't have that self-compassion, you don't have that forgiveness. You're so hard on yourself, aren't you?
Sophie Scott:I agree, and particularly if you've been working at a really high level and being able to cope with everything up and to that point, you can be like, well, why can't I just do what I've always done? And for me it was working intensely as a broadcast journalist with daily deadlines, so I had a news program that I was filing for every evening and on top of that I was flying around the country hosting health-related events. And it was when I was just doing both those things at a really intense and full-on level that my burnout got to the stage where, cognitively, I was fine, I was happy to keep doing what I was doing, but my body had other ideas. My body was like this is not working for us anymore and working so much and not taking a break, and my body told me that I had to change, I had to do things differently. And I started to get all these symptoms that I'd never had before, so really severe dizziness and the physical fatigue and not being able to walk long distances and not being able to do any exercise whatsoever. And yeah, so the body for me, was the key that I had to make changes. And then, when I looked at how I could change my life and what I needed to do to get better. It was through the body and that mind-body connection that, really, for the first time, I actually got serious about the things that we can all do, even just for five minutes a day, that are going to provide that protection against stress and you're going to build up your nervous system and help you become more regulated so that you can stay in that more relaxed state and not in that survival mode and that fight or flight on an ongoing basis.
Sophie Scott:And so what I hadn't realized was just the impact of those daily habits and those daily activities that I knew I should be doing.
Sophie Scott:I mean, I'd written about, for example, I'd written about the benefits of meditation and the benefits of exercise, and so it wasn't from a lack of knowledge, but it was a lack of action and putting that knowledge into practice. And that's what I've realized that you can have all the knowledge in the world and all the information and a library full of books and listen to a million podcasts, but if you don't actually take action and do it and you just keep staying with the excuses of why you're not doing it and you're too busy and this and that, and nothing's going to change, and so, for me, it was about taking those actions, those small steps that made a difference for me to regain my health, to get my nervous system working properly again, and it was daily meditation and some gentle exercise, prioritizing connection with people, that were very nourishing and gave you a sense of joy and well-being. So just doing small amounts of those things and also putting some much better boundaries in place over the work that I was doing, that was really what made a massive difference.
Flic Taylor :Yeah, absolutely. It's very easy, isn't it, to let little things slide. I love how you say like. I mean, you're so right. Like you know, there's a big difference between knowing and doing, isn't there? We're only human, we are human.
Sophie Scott:We are, yeah, but I think sometimes I was one of those people that I was all about the knowing. You know, read the book, listen to the podcast. You know, write the book. You know, not even, just not even just read the book, but write them.
Sophie Scott:But you actually need to do it. You actually need to do these activities and these habits for your well-being, and it doesn't need to be hours every day. In fact, you better off to just think about what are the things that I could manage on my busiest day and on my worst day and start there. Start there with, you know, five minutes of some deep breathing in the morning or five minutes of a walk at lunchtime and get away from your desk. So start really small, but be consistent, and then you start to see the benefits of these habits, and that was something that I needed to learn as well. I needed to get out of that all-or-nothing mindset. I was very much oh, if I can't go to the gym for an hour in my lunch break, then I just won't bother. Now I see the flaws in that argument and you're much better off just to do five or ten minutes of something that is nurturing for your body and mind rather than, you know, doing nothing at all.
Flic Taylor :Yeah, it's funny, isn't it? Because I would definitely have all of these, you know, basic human needs. Basically, they would always be on the bottom of my to-do list and I would never reach them. And it's funny, isn't it? Because and I know when I chat with clients, or as you chat with audience members, or you know when you do your presentations what got us to reach those success benchmarks, those dreams, those hopes, those wishes, with those like overachieving, like, you know, really going for ambition, and all those actions that got us up there. Actually, there comes a point where you're like, oh, actually that no longer serves us. It's great to be able to kind of focus and reach those ambitions, but then you have to stay there, to be doing that kind of dream job. You then you really do have to look after yourself, don't you?
Sophie Scott:It's true, and I've got four sons with my husband and they've all been, you know, gone off in different directions. But we've been really stressing that message that if you want a sustainable career as a high performer, these things that you know we're talking about in this podcast, they're not just sort of like a nice addition to something, nice to add into your life. They're actually the fundamentals and the basic basis that you build that high performing life on, so that you know you can manage stress and you can deal with all the other stuff. The basis of it are these daily practices that help you sustain that long term, that career and be a high performer for a long period. Otherwise you end up you end up burning out because you haven't put those practices and those guardrails in place. And we, you know we I've done more reading and more research into the impact of positive emotions, the impact that they have on how we deal with stress and how we manage stress.
Sophie Scott:And there's a great research paper by Barbara Friedrichson, who is a positive psychology researcher and she writes about. It's called the undoing hypothesis and her work really looks at the impact that positive emotions and positive feelings that we get from doing things like connecting with people and, you know, exercise and meditation these things can undo the negative impacts of, you know, of work and stress and modern life, and so if we're not adding those things into our life, we're setting ourselves up for failure. And that's what I've realized the hard way and that's what I now teach in workshops and people that I talk to, and my kids as well.
Flic Taylor :Oh, I love that. It, you know it's that whole essence of self care is not selfish. I'm a big believer. Like you know. Eyes are watching us all the time, whether you're someone with kids, whether you're someone co workers. As soon as we start to show these little steps towards self care and boundary setting, it gives other people permission to do the same, doesn't it Like? It just can all remind each other, we can all inspire each other, can't we?
Sophie Scott:And, particularly like I work with some, you know quite a few leaders and people who might be leading a team that's burnt out or they might be feeling burnt out themselves, and so I always say lead by example, particularly if you're managing a team. If you're, you know, making the time to look after yourself, you're sending a really strong message to your team that it's okay to do it In fact, it's a good thing and so you know you need to be, you know, lead by example in your behaviors, and that's going to have more impact than anything else that you do Because, like you said, people are always watching what we do and taking notice, and so our actions really do speak very loudly.
Flic Taylor :Yeah, and when you look at productivity, I know as a writer and you as a writer like that creativity, my best work always comes from when I've just been out in nature or I've had a rest, or you know, when you're just like so able to sit and get in the zone of writing, and it's because I'm rested. It's never because I've spent eight hours at my desk and I need to know what to do. It's never that.
Sophie Scott:Exactly and like we know so much about the way the brain works that there's a great thing, as I think, of the default mode network in the brain. So, for example, if you're sitting at your desk trying to solve a problem or trying to, you know, finish an article or whatever, and it's not working. If you, you know, go for a walk or take a break, the different parts of the brain switch on when we're not actively sort of focused on doing something, and that's often when we can be the most creative and an idea will come to you. You'll be like, oh excellent, this is, I know, that thing I was thinking about, I know how to solve it now, and so you know. But sometimes we feel guilty for taking those breaks and taking the time to have some, you know, rest and restoration. But if we want to again achieve at a high performing level for a long time, you know we need to build those, those periods of rest and restore into our day.
Sophie Scott:And I like there's, you know, I like the idea of taking brain breaks. So, basically, recognizing that the brain's not designed to work at full capacity, you know, for six or seven or eight hours nonstop. It's designed to work in about a 90 minute cycle, so working for 90 minutes and then having a not necessarily a break, but just doing like a lower intensity of work for 20 minutes. And so I think thinking about you know, setting up your day in that way so that you're not just really focusing on things for hours and hours at a time, you're using our neurobiology to make it work for you, basically.
Flic Taylor :Yeah, absolutely. I don't know what it's like in Australia, but here we're still kind of a lot of people haven't gone back to the workplace, we've adapted, and there's a lot of hybrid working and I know I actually see it with my husband. I see him like it's very easy for him to sit at his desk for long periods of time, and I think, you know, we kind of need to be very aware of this because, as you say, like after an hour and a half, like get up and you know, have a walk around, go for a walk around the block or do something and then come back because that productivity is so much easier to access, isn't it?
Sophie Scott:Yes, and all the research shows that if you ignore that, if you just power through, your productivity just goes down, your creativity goes down. And so you think you're doing the right thing by just keeping going, but you're actually the quality of the work that you do will decline. And so, yeah, I think factoring in and it's not necessarily about taking a break so much as you know thinking about what's a low, low, intense work that I could do. It might be just, you know, making a change, or making a couple of quick phone calls that don't require too much, you know brain power, or just, and then saving again that once you've had that break, then the next 90 minutes you can go. Right, I'm getting back into my, you know, cognitive work here, my deeper work, and then I'm going to have 20 minutes of shallow work after that.
Flic Taylor :Oh, fantastic. Oh my gosh, sophie. This is amazing conversation. If I'd been able to listen to this conversation about four years ago, I might have been able to stop having her down.
Sophie Scott:Oh, I know it's one of those things that you and I both learned things the hard way and now we're passionate about wanting to help other people, because there is a different way. It doesn't require much change in your life, but you do need to be intentional. I think that's the thing that I was always making excuses about why I couldn't do it. I'm too busy. Oh, I need to be checking my emails from six in the morning. I need to be listening to the news from six in the morning, and the reality is and was is that I didn't need to be doing that. I could have actually taken the time, if I'd wanted to, to do the things that I do now and to prioritize my well-being over thinking that I need to be checking my emails at six in the morning and listening to news and current affairs from first thing in the morning. The reason that isn't a good idea to be checking emails and going on social media first thing in the morning is, as soon as you start doing that, you become a slave to the news cycle or the news agenda or your bosses agenda or whoever you're following on social media, and if they post something that triggers you, you're giving all the power over to somebody else. Yet you've got the power to use that time for yourself and for some people particularly if you're working and busy and a parent or whatever that might be the only time of the day that you get that's yours, so don't give it away Like I did for so many years. I gave it away whereas I could have used it for myself, which I do now, and I do that whether I'm traveling. If I'm traveling for work, I'll still do the same things in the morning as if I was at home.
Sophie Scott:I try to keep that routine and ritual as much as I can, because I know it serves me well and I know that I wanna just embed those habits with neural pathways so I don't need to rely on motivation. We can't rely on motivation flick to keep us going, because motivation comes and goes. So that's why consistency with your habits makes such a difference, making things so automatic that you don't need to be motivated to do it or choose it. You just think, oh right, okay, it's this time of the day, this is what I do every day. The brain just looks for that pattern and goes right, okay For me.
Sophie Scott:When I wake up, I'll make a cup of tea and as a Brit, you'll understand the whole cup of tea thing and that's my time to do a meditation. So my brain just knows right. First cup of tea is paired with a meditation and it's just become so automatic. You don't actually need to think about it and that's taken me a while to get to that point, but it makes a huge difference because I don't need to rely on motivation, and I know motivation. There's some days you don't feel like doing it, you don't feel like going to exercise, but that doing it because you're just doing it over and over again, becomes automatic and you don't need to choose to do it, you just do it.
Flic Taylor :Absolutely. And oh my gosh, we always feel better for our mental health, don't we, after exercise. That was something I learned, actually through my burnout recovery, because I'm really bad when it comes to exercise. I've always got. I don't wanna do that, I'd rather have some chocolate buns, drink cup of tea. But the challenge is for doing exercise Like you. Just, you never feel worse for having some gentle movement, do you?
Sophie Scott:Exactly, and I think that's the thing that I wish exercise could have a rebranding, because it's not about looking a certain way or being a certain body shape or size or weight or anything like that.
Sophie Scott:For me, that doesn't matter. For me, it's about the impact and the positive impact movement has on your mental health and your emotional wellbeing, and feeling stronger in your body and doing whatever you're able to do, sometimes listening to your body. If you're not up to doing what you planned, if you planned to go to the gym, and you wake up and you think, oh, look, I'm not up to do that, rather than do nothing, then I just say to myself I'll just do some stretching at home, I'll just do 10 or 15 minutes of stretching instead. So, rather than doing nothing, I'm keeping my promises to myself to do some movement, but I'm not thinking, oh, you know I can't go to the gym, so I just won't do anything at all. I know that even going for a 10 minute walk around the block is gonna make me feel better and that's why I do it, not to look a certain way, not to be a certain size or body shape or anything like that. That is not part of it at all for me.
Flic Taylor :Yeah, it's that commitment to yourself, it's prioritising yourself. I love how you start the day for yourself. That's something I try and do as well, like, if I can start the day for myself and that for me is journaling I'm a real jeweler. And if I can end the day with reading or meditation or just, like you know, looking out the window, chilling, if I can bookend my day, then I'm setting myself up for some kind of success. Yeah.
Sophie Scott:Yeah, and then a mindset shift that I really like is also to think about acting like the person that you want to become. So, rather than waiting till you are that person, just start doing it. And if you want to be a calmer person, then most people who are calm do some sort of breathing or meditation. Most people who are fit have some sort of movement, daily movement, in their lives, and so if you act like that person you know it's sort of you do what the future you would want would like you to do, rather than the you now then it becomes just part of your DNA, even if it never has been.
Sophie Scott:I wasn't a sporty person when I was younger. I never played sport and never enjoyed sport or doing anything. You know to like movement and fitness when I was younger, but it doesn't mean that you have to be defined by that and you don't need to hold onto those stories that you might be telling yourself that, oh, I'm not into fitness, I'm not into that sort of thing. It's like you can make whatever you want out of your daily habits and your daily life and thinking about you, know, emulating the person that you want to become through your habits. Then you actually become that person, and it's really quite amazing how you can have that mindset shift of like okay, what would a happy and healthy and strong person do every day? And that's what you need to be doing.
Flic Taylor :Ah, that's amazing because you really are stepping towards striving for balance, you're stepping away from that all or nothing mentality, which is definitely a comfort zone of mind Because you know it's worked in the past and I've just been very driven and I've gone right. I'm going to go help a leather on this, but actually post burnout my body will not allow me to do that anymore, you know.
Sophie Scott:I think, even once I don't know about you, but once you've been through burnout, it's something that you always need to be mindful of, Because I think, if you are a driven person and you want to achieve and you've got things that you're passionate about and you want to be doing stuff and you like being productive which I do and you do and there is that tendency to think I've got to keep doing stuff. I've got to, you know, I've got to keep producing, I've got to keep writing and making videos and writing speeches and growing my Instagram and the. The danger you can fall into is that trap of, you know, being productive and is not a sign of your worth, and having a certain number of followers isn't a sign of your intrinsic worth as a person, and so I think we need to be mindful of that, and I think, you know, one of the things that I've been looking at, one of the areas in mental wellbeing is the issue of high functioning anxiety, and so what that is. It's when you have someone who's in a you know, maybe a very senior role, maybe they might have a huge career and they're from the outside, it looks like everything is going so well in their life. They're succeeding on any metric that you might think, but underneath they've got this inner sort of anxiety that you know people are going to discover that they're a bit of a fraud or that they're not as good as they think they are. And so high functioning anxiety is something that I think is quite tied up with burnout, because it pushes people who have it. It pushes them just to do more and more and more without thinking about taking the time to look after themselves and taking those breaks and putting their wellbeing first. And I've been.
Sophie Scott:Really, the more I write about high functioning anxiety, the more I sort of see that there is that link with burnout, and that's why I've just been. You know, I've got a new e-book coming out, which should be out very soon to really help people understand that you can achieve everything you want to achieve without having to have that inner turmoil of imposter syndrome and feeling like you're going to be. You know someone's going to discover that you're not the amazing person that you they thought you were. And finding and going through these different techniques to manage anxiety is really, you know, the first step, I think, in understanding that you can still be a high performer, but do it in a way that you're not feeling, you know like. I love the visual analogy of like a duck swimming along a pond and there's this. From the outside, the duck looks sort of peaceful and beautiful, but underneath that there's little feet paddling, paddling, paddling, paddling, and that's often what high functioning anxiety can feel like for people.
Flic Taylor :Oh, your, this, your book, is so needed in the world. It really is. I can't wait to dive into it For those listening. What are some of the key signs? Warning signs for high functioning anxiety.
Sophie Scott:Yeah, so I think high functioning anxiety it's not a formal medical diagnosis, so it's not in medical textbooks, but I think. But it's something that a lot of high achievers identify with, and it's that it that disconnect between the outside appearance and your and how you feel internally. So the outside appearance of everything looking amazing and you've got this fantastic career and your life's going so well, but internally you feel like it's all about to fall apart and you've got to hold it all together, and you know your fear of making mistakes. So often people with high functioning anxiety will, you know, work harder, do more and want to achieve more, and they're really afraid of making errors and and that's the anxiety part you know taking control. And so what I write about in the ebook is being able to, you know, sit with those feelings of discomfort rather than trying to push them away, because that can often make it worse. But when it comes to anxiety, we think, oh, I've got to get rid of this anxious feeling, I've got to get rid of it. I don't, I don't like feeling like this, and but what that can do is magnify those feelings because you're putting all your attention towards it and so instead, just sort of acknowledging those feelings and those thoughts and emotions and just letting them sit and not paying them too much attention, and also recognizing that a lot of anxiety, like we said before, it really lives in the body.
Sophie Scott:If you think about anxiety, it's often physical symptoms, so your heart pounding or you might feel shaky, you might have a dry mouth, and so the things that we've talked about already on the podcast the practices, the mind body practices these are the things that are going to help you manage anxiety as well, because you're able to down regulate your nervous system, get back into that rest and digest state much more, much more quickly, and and recognize that the anxiety is just, you know, a physical manifestation.
Sophie Scott:But through things like you know, the biggest way to get out of that anxious feeling is to do some deep breathing when your exhale is longer than your inhale, and that will help put you in that relaxed state. And it was only when I really looked into the research and just saw how overwhelming it was that these mind body practices make such a difference that I thought I think this will be a useful toolkit for people so that they can think about OK, I've got high functioning anxiety, I want to have some new tools so that I can deal with it and I can feel better and I can still maintain doing this amazing work that they're doing in high flying career and things, but feel better on the inside.
Flic Taylor :Yeah, absolutely, because, again, when you're experiencing this, it's so easy to think it's only me, it's only me who can't do this. And, as you say, when you've got that high functioning anxiety, there's that fear factor of you know, people knowing what you're going through. I know I certainly experience imposter syndrome. It's so hard, isn't it, sophie, to navigate, like some days are tough when you're constantly thinking, oh my God, because that inner critic voice, it's never your own. It either came from school or a parent, or a child or a daughter.
Sophie Scott:And I think the thing about imposter syndrome it's it can be all pervasive and it can really make those achievements that people have, you know, rather than enjoying them they have. You can have this sense of someone's going to discover that I'm not as good as I think, and it can be very debilitating for people. And it is that inner voice. And so I think the first thing is to think about is where did that come from, that that I think that I need to keep proving myself to people that I'm, that I feel I'm not worthy of being in these rooms or being in this position. So did that come from your childhood? Did it come from a teacher or someone? Somewhere back in our history? That thought's been embedded and we've held on to that story. So the first step is really acknowledging that. That's all it is. It's just a faulty story that we've been carrying around and we need to think about you know why, why we feel that way, and that's really the first step in in unpacking it. And I think with imposter syndrome, on the other thing it does, it shows us how much we care about whatever we're doing, because we want to be seen to be doing a good job. So that's, that's the positive thing that can come out of it. If you are feeling like an imposter doing something, it means you really want to succeed and you really want to do well and that shows how passionate you are about whatever it is that you're doing. And so I find I find that a sort of reassuring and having that air of curiosity of like, why am I feeling this way when there's no evidence to back up? You know that I do have the skills. I can do this.
Sophie Scott:And look at, you know, look at your history and look at your achievements and focus on things that have gone well. And you know, with the brain we have this inbuilt negativity bias where we're always looking out for the negative, we're always looking out for what could go wrong. We have to actively choose to focus on the good things and the positive things that we've done. And so if you are feeling that imposter syndrome, you need to look at, you know, evidence of the good things that are going on. And it might be only a really small thing that's going well for you at that moment.
Sophie Scott:But once you change your attention to focus on the things that are going well, that's where if you're where your attention goes is what grows in your life. So you can choose to focus on the things that aren't working. You can choose to focus on what's not going well. There'll always be something, there'll always be something to complain about and find fault with. Or you can switch that around and think you know what is actually going well for me right now. What are the things that you know that I want to focus on, that are actually that I'm nailing, and I find that a very powerful practice as well.
Flic Taylor :Oh, I love that you share that, Sophie. I'm just listening to this and I'm thinking, oh my gosh, is that self compassion piece? Because surely I'm not alone in on some very dark imposter syndrome days. I would also pick up the stick and be like oh my gosh, why do I even have imposter syndrome? What's wrong with me? It's so. It's making people worse.
Flic Taylor :You know it's this vicious. So instead of being like, hey, you're just having a tough day, Look at, look at all the positive side. I care about my job. So much it's okay, Chill, let's take a step back.
Sophie Scott:It's not toxic positivity where you have to be positive no matter what else is happening. That's not what we want. What I like to recognize is that the brain does have this inbuilt negativity bias, so it will look for things that are not going well. It will look for the things of evidence that you know you're not doing as well as you otherwise could. So you've got to be intentional the other and flip it around and say you know what? There are things that are going well. Let's focus on those, let's put our emotional and our cognitive energy into that, and then that's what will grow, because I'm focusing on those things.
Flic Taylor :Oh, absolutely. Is that outdated hard-wiring brain of ours, isn't it where it's like? Let's ensure their survival and keep them safe as possible. We're like no, hang on a minute.
Sophie Scott:Yeah, and we need to work with that. We need to work with our neurobiology. It's not changing. You know, again, like we need to work with what we've got and you know we need to basically recognize that that sense of being safe and being accepted and it's something that is hardwired into us and you know we need to. We unfortunately can't change that.
Sophie Scott:So, being intentional with your focus and you know what you're spending your emotional energy on and your cognitive energy, that's how you will end up and that's why I've completely, you know, I've gone from as a news journalist.
Sophie Scott:I would be listening to news and current affairs, reading newspapers and reading news sites from 6am in the morning till 10 at night, and I've gone completely the other way. Circle, full circle. And I just focus on like I've enrolled to study positive psychology I focus on people's strengths, make it a very and it's not about toxic positivity, it's recognizing that, yes, bad things do happen in the world, but I'm choosing to focus on the good things that are happening and making sure that, because I know that that's going to have a massive impact on my mood and if my mood is good, then the people around me, their mood will be good too, because we do have that ripple effect. I think we sometimes underestimate the ripple effect that our moods have on people you know, particularly you know in our close relationships, but also if you're a leader in a workplace, if you come into the office in a bad mood, that really flows onto your team. So your state of mind, your inner world and your emotional wellbeing has an impact on more than just yourself.
Flic Taylor :Yeah, and you know what that lovely positive energy that you have, sophie, really comes through in your social media. I love that about following your Instagram posts because it always comes across as very compassionate and positive. There's a lightness to it. So, listening to you talk, because when you said, oh, you know, when you were in the kind of the newsroom or whatever, I'm just thinking, oh, my gosh, like your nervous system must have been like triggered, quite often subconsciously, without you even knowing it.
Sophie Scott:And I think some of us are more empathetic than others. And I think, if you do identify as like an empathetic person, like, for example, which I do, and you may as well, I can't watch movies with violence and I can't watch scary movies because I find them overwhelming. I find that really overwhelming and I think, recognizing that and putting those boundaries up and just saying that's just not for me Other people go for it, enjoy it, but it's just not for me. And I think, being in a news cycle and a newsroom where the focus is generally on what's going wrong, the focus is on what's not working.
Sophie Scott:Even though I was focused on, my specialty was health and so in a lot of ways I was able to tell positive stories so research, breakthroughs and big advances in medicine so in that respect, I was more than other journalists able to tell positive stories. But I still think news generally is all about what's not working well, and doing that for me day in and day out for 20 something years. It wasn't really ideal but, having said, I did love my career, but it starts to take a toll on you after a while. So I do think if you're someone like that listening you need to think about your consumption of news, your consumption of what is generally negative news, and modify it so that you're not being really affected by it, like so many of us can be.
Flic Taylor :Absolutely, and certainly right now, the news is very heavy and I think it's okay to kind of, as you say, consume in small amounts and what works for you, because we have to look after our own nervous system. We have to look after ourselves, don't we? And we have to look after ourselves, don't we?
Sophie Scott:Exactly, and that's the same. If you're a leader of a, you know, and a leader can be someone who might not, you know, you can have a title, but there, you know, you can be a leader in a workplace without necessarily having a title, but people are still paying attention to you and you're you know your emotional wellbeing, and so I think we do. We owe it to ourselves and the people that we care about to think about the influences, and your diet is much more than what we just eat. It's also what we're consuming through social media and being intentional with your consumption of social media and news, so that you're making it a worthwhile experience and a positive experience, rather than, you know, just something that you do just for the sake of it and you don't really realise the impact it has on you and the people around you.
Flic Taylor :That's such a good point. I love that you say that. You're right. It's not just the food we eat, it's making sure we nourish ourselves with other with other things too. Oh my gosh, I knew this conversation would be amazing, but I'm just listening. You've got all this wealth of information. It's just what a treat for people listening. As I say, if I'd heard this for years, I might have not burnt out so badly.
Sophie Scott:Look, I think we can all have the knowledge and you know, look, you know, I think it's one of those things that I probably knew a lot of this back then before I burnt out, but it's putting it into practice that takes the key. And thinking about, you know, getting rid of those excuses of I don't have time, I'm too busy. You know, it's not my priority, because your body will tell you and it'll give you a wake up call that you and I both had and that I don't want the listeners to hear, I don't want the listeners to have, and what we went through. And if you are feeling like you are on that road to burnout, you know, ask for support.
Sophie Scott:You know, don't feel isolated and don't recognize it. It's not a personal failing on your part by any means and there are things you can do to feel so much better. And you know employers generally want their employees to be happy and healthy and productive. So a good employer will listen and hopefully take steps so that you won't feel so overwhelmed and burnt out. And that's not we. Don't want people to be feeling that way because, like as you and I found, it can be a bit of a long road back to feeling, feeling good.
Flic Taylor :It really can. And I look back now and I kind of wish I'd taken more charge of my own life. I can remember just, you're just so busy and you're on that hamster wheel that you can almost feel stuck on that hamster wheel and I just wish I'd been able to press pause and think Hang on a minute. This is my life, I can do what I want. You know exactly.
Sophie Scott:And I think also, it's interesting you use the word busy, because sometimes the language that we use can really portray to other people and to ourselves. You know, if someone asks you or have you been what's been going on, and if you're like, oh, I'm so busy, oh, my God, there's so much happening, and what that basically is saying to yourself and other people is that I don't have time for anything. You know, but the reality is we do have time for the things that we value and the things that we want to make the time for, even if it's just five minutes I'm not talking about an hour, it's five minutes and you know, most of us have time to watch stuff on Netflix and go on social media, and we make the time for those things. Yeah, we don't make the time for the things that are going to actually nourish us and make us feel so much better, and so I actually sort of have banned the word busy for myself.
Sophie Scott:If anyone asked me how I am or how I've been, I'll tell them. Yet things have been great, I've been doing this and that and that, but I really wanted to get away from that busy label that you know that some of we sort of whereas a badge of honor being busy, but it really just sends that message to ourselves that I was so time poor, we just don't have time for anything. And whereas we can take back that control over our time and think about where we want to spend our time with intention and put our attention on the things that that really matter.
Flic Taylor :Oh my goodness, sophie, I think that's the mic drop right there. Absolutely, because when we're saying we're busy, we're hearing other people say we're busy, our kids are hearing that we're saying this. Oh my God, there's the mic drop.
Sophie Scott:Oh, you're amazing. It's so great that you're doing this work to help people as well and to coach people out of feeling burnt out and having that support will just be invaluable for people. You know someone who's been there, done that and come out the other side.
Flic Taylor :Well, I'm just sat here thinking it's interesting, isn't it? You were kind of journalist and health, I was kind of a lighter for mental health. Like it's interesting. You know, take it from us. We wish women it happened to us. Don't follow us. Let's, like, you know, start to. Yeah, I think we're kind of good people to be putting that message out there, because who'd have thought it would be us?
Sophie Scott:Exactly, exactly. And it was only when a psychiatrist friend of mine who was writing a book on burnout contacted me saying he was looking for some case studies to talk to people who'd gone through burnout. And he went through the list of symptoms and I said to him oh my God, that's what I've, that's what I'm going through right now, but I hadn't really put two and two together. And so I think you know, getting having people talking about burnout, being really open about it, being explaining what the symptoms are, is really helpful for people, because sometimes you can be thinking I just don't feel like my normal self, is something wrong with me, and then people explain what the burnout symptoms are and you're like okay, that's exactly how I feel, and you know particularly that that feeling of like not being able to do a good job anymore and that feeling of you can't you can't achieve what you used to achieve and and doubting your own abilities these are all the things that's very specific to burnout and I think you know that's when you understand that then you can start to recover from it. So, acknowledging what it is and whether you have it and working, you know, with people to get better and you can get better, as you and I've, you know, to the fact you can come out the other side, but it's still like every day. I sort of recommit to those practices that are going to prevent me from getting burnt out again.
Sophie Scott:And one thing that also the research shows is having an identity outside your work is also a great predictive, protective factor against burnout. So you know, there's examples of like surgeons who do salsa dancing. You know, when they're in the salsa dancing class no one knows that they're a high flying surgeon. They just think they know their names, mike, and they're doing salsa dancing.
Sophie Scott:Those sort of practices are very helpful to keep that sense of perspective so that your whole life is not just focused on your whole identity, is not just focused on your work and what you do. You have things that you enjoy outside that work, identity. And again, that's something that I think I probably didn't prioritize enough, you know, for all those years. But yeah, and I learned the hard way. So I think if people are looking at their lives and thinking all my focus and my whole identity is tied up in my job, then think about, you know, one of the things I used to enjoy doing as a kid and the hobbies that I used to like doing and then bring that something, bring some of that into your life. You know, and have that identity outside your work identity and that can be very helpful to you.
Flic Taylor :Yeah, help you reconnect to yourself, because it's so easy to give away fragments of yourself and then, before you know, you're like hang on a minute, I don't even know what I like anymore. Yeah, absolutely, there's nothing left for you. Yeah, yeah, sophie, this has been an incredible conversation. Oh my gosh. At the end of my podcast, I've been asking my guests some quick, fire, light hearted questions, because we all have a lot of different. Yeah, on your dodgy tough days, do you opt for move your body or move the remote?
Sophie Scott:It used to be moving the remote, but now it's moving my body.
Flic Taylor :Yeah yeah, it just helps, doesn't it? You just always feel better for moving. Okay, back of almonds or back of Maltesers. Do you even have Maltesers?
Sophie Scott:Oh, love Maltesers, love, love, love Maltesers. So definitely I do like nuts, but I think if I had the option of either, it'd be the Maltesers.
Flic Taylor :Oh, maltesers, really cup of tea. Oh, the best. Do you ask for help or are you happy to hermit?
Sophie Scott:I've got much better at asking for help, and I recognize that you know suffering in silence is doesn't do anyone any good. So I'm pretty much better now at asking for help, you know, with the people around you and the people that care about you as well. You know there are all of us have people around us who care about our wellbeing and you know, we know that having those good, meaningful relationships is one of the biggest predictors of our wellbeing. So so you know, use those good relationships that that we all have, to get that support. So yeah, I'd say I'm pretty good with support these days.
Flic Taylor :I love that. Okay now, what's the one self compassionate thing you're going to do today that your future self will thank you for?
Sophie Scott:Well, I've already done a few things already. So I've I did my cup of tea and did the meditation this morning. I've been to the gym already and I've got a really nice day planned for just sort of low cognitive activities for the rest of the day, and so I'll probably take my dog for a walk this afternoon. I think that's going to be when, when it cools down a bit, because a pretty hot day here in Sydney, australia so when the temperature drops a little bit, I'll take my little Kabood or Sammy for a walk this afternoon. So that'll be my, my, my last thing in the afternoon that I'll do for me.
Flic Taylor :Oh, amazing, See you walk the talk. You're doing it. Oh, Sophie, thank you so much for this chat. It's, I know it's going to help someone. Someone out there is going to listen to this and it's just going to be that lovely little shift and they won't go down the road that we did.
Sophie Scott:So thank you so much, and thank you so much for having me and good on you for the great work that you're doing with with people you know on the burnout journey, it makes a massive difference to have support and someone who understands what it's like. So, yeah, it's been great to chat. Thank you for reaching out.
Flic Taylor :It's been amazing. Thank you so much, Sophie. In our pop in the show notes where people can find your new book. You've got two other books, but I'm excited about your new one coming out, so I'll pop in the notes.
Sophie Scott:That's amazing and we've got I've also got quite a lot of free resources on my website about about burnout, about high functioning anxiety already that people can download. So go there and get all the free resources that are there already. Plus, I've got a YouTube channel where I shoot a lot of videos about evidence based things I've talked about today. So if people like watching videos, they can go to the YouTube and, yeah, it's all about getting the information out so that people can take the action to feel better.
Flic Taylor :Oh, amazing, you're a star. Thank you so much, sophie. This has been brilliant, thank you. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of everyday burnout conversations. Take a peek at the show notes for any links to items discussed today. And if you want to continue the burnout conversation, you can find me on social media at flicktaylorite, or you can head to my website, flicktaylorcom, if you're curious and want to learn more on what it's like to work with me one to one. So, in the meantime, rest up, don't forget to take good care of you, and bye for now.