Everyday Burnout Conversations
Everyday burnout conversations is an honest podcast sharing the burnout experiences of others from all walks of life. Host, Flic Taylor, is a writer whose passion for burnout arose when she became a mental health writer dealing with severe burnout - and yes, the irony is not lost on her! Enjoy these weekly conversations sharing stories of surviving and thriving, all delightfully wrapped up in epic truths, compassion, and humour.
Everyday Burnout Conversations
Tamu Thomas | Harnessing the power of self-care, joy and pleasure to redefine work-life harmony
In this episode, I share an everyday burnout conversation with Tamu Thomas.
Tamu Thomas is a transformational life coach and former social worker, specialising in helping women achieve work-life harmony by aligning with their nervous system for holistic well-being.
With her social work background, Tamu deeply understands the systemic issues that contribute to workplace stress and the unequal distribution of emotional labour.
Recognised as a thought leader, Tamu has been featured in many notable publications. Her unique approach, rooted in somatic coaching and Polyvagal informed practice, empowers women to reconnect with their core selves, establish healthy boundaries, and build self-trust. Her work is particularly resonant in addressing the unique challenges faced by women of the global majority under what she describes as, "the trinity of oppression” - patriarchy, white supremacy and capitalism.
Her insights are essential for anyone seeking fulfilment, meaningful connection and joy in today's fast-paced world.
Her new book, "Women Who Work Too Much: Break Free from Toxic Productivity and Find Your Joy," offers groundbreaking insights to help women liberate themselves from the systemic pressures that create an environment where women over-function to survive workplace stress and the unequal burden of emotional and domestic responsibilities.
As we navigate the complexities of self-care and boundary-setting, Tamu and I discuss the art of saying 'no' and the sheer radicalness of putting oneself first without the guilt. This episode peels back the layers of the 'trinity of oppression' that women of the global majority endure, and we explore how redefining kindness with limits can lead to a healthier, more joyous existence. Tamu's upcoming book promises to be a manifesto for those ready to break free from the shackles of toxic productivity, and our conversation is punctuated with the kind of energy that can only come from passionate women focused on inciting change and championing empowerment.
By the end of our discussion, we've journeyed through the landscapes of pleasure and personal growth, understanding that our power lies not only in our ability to survive but to thrive. We explore the collective might in community and the importance of supporting one another through shared narratives and experiences. Each story we share is a beacon, guiding others through the turbulence of life towards the calm shores of self-compassion and gratitude.
Join us as Tamu Thomas and I invite you to reshape your narrative, find your balance, and discover the pleasure in every choice you make.
Learn more about Tamu's work:
Tamu's website
Tamu's Instagram
Tamu's Life & Business Sanctuary membership group
Tamu's new book Women Who Work Too Much
Pre-order Tamu's book - release date March 5th, 2024 - Hay House Publishing
Fancy a little more burnout chat? Let's continue the conversation.
Find me on Instagram, TikTok and Facebook
Check out my latest work and discover how you can work one-to-one with me to tackle your burnout at flictaylor.com
Hello, I'm Flick and you're listening to Everyday Burnout Conversations. This is the honest podcast that shares burnout expertise, along with the stories of others from all walks of life that strive to inspire and help you manage and avoid burnout. Now, my passion for burnout and self-care came about when I became a mental health writer who'd lost her own mental health to severe burnout and it's an irony that's not lost on me. So get set to enjoy another great conversation, delightfully wrapped up in some wisdom, humour and great storytelling. Enjoy.
Flic Taylor :Today I'm chatting with Tamu Thomas, a transformational life coach and former social worker specialising in helping women achieve work-life harmony by aligning with their nervous system for holistic wellbeing. With her social work background, tammu understands the systemic issues that contribute to workplace stress and the unequal distribution of emotional labour. Recognised as a thought leader, tammu has been featured in many notable publications. Her unique approach is rooted in somatic coaching and polyvagal informed practice, and she really strives to empower women to reconnect with their core cells, establish those healthy boundaries and build self-trust. Her work is particularly resonant in addressing the unique challenges faced by women of the global majority under what she describes as the trinity of oppression. It's the patriarchy, white supremacy and capitalism. Her new book I'm so excited for. This one is Women who Work Too Much. Break free from toxic productivity and find your joy, and it's going to offer some groundbreaking insights to help women liberate themselves from the systemic pressures that create an environment where women overfunction to survive workplace stress and the unequal burden of emotional and domestic responsibilities.
Flic Taylor :I told you it was going to be good. This was an absolute gem of a chat to record. I was so excited to connect with Tamu, as you might even hear the excitement and the energy build between the two of us as we go through this conversation. By the end of it, we were actually both really buzzing, which you know what. That is precisely why I love doing this podcast and why these conversations and connections. They just mean so much to me. So let's crack on. Here's an everyday burnout conversation with the brilliant Tammu. Thomas Tammu, I can't. I'm so excited to sit here with you on the station. It's been a long time and I've just been. You've been on my wish list and I was sat having my coffee this morning and I was thinking when.
Flic Taylor :I started following you and then I had like a very visceral moment, because I'm going to go back to August 2020, when I had last handed put my notice in with my job, my dream job. I just put my notice in because I was a mental health lighter. I knew I had burnout, I knew I was struggling, but you did an Instagram live and it was just. I can remember just like the floodgates were down, like I cried because you told your story of burnout as a social worker and it was like everything in my body just went love, pay attention, let's start. Let's start to like chill and do the work now and so to start us off, because there's going to be someone else out there like me who needs to hear your voice. Your words, your ratings impact them. Can you please share a little bit about your experience with burnout?
Tamu Thomas :Yeah, so I was a child protection social worker for nearly 16 years. I worked with very vulnerable families, like intergenerational difficulties, and you name it like you couldn't make some of it up. When they say the truth is stranger than fiction, it's absolutely true. So not only was I working in a sector that is very demanding and runs off people's passion, to be quite honest, which is, you know, takes a lot of your life force, energy, I was also experiencing secondary trauma because of the things I was hearing about on a daily basis working with people with like very live, loud, active trauma, being threatened sometimes, and working for the government who, to be quite frank, chronically underfund and under resource work that needs to be done with human beings, whether it's mental health, physical health all of it is grossly underfunded. So you were always working kind of like on the back foot and burnout was normalized. So the World Health Organization characterizes burnout as chronic stress that's unmanaged, and there are three dimensions they talk about. They talk about like exhaustion, like depletion, exhaustion being very like a negative outlook, being very cynical, and what was the other one? I can't remember what the other one is like having like a really low bandwidth, low mental resilience, not able to cope with the ordinariness of life. Now I just want to point out burnout can come from having a job you don't like and treats you terribly, and it can also come from being really passionate about your job, doing something you love and chronically overworking all the time. So it's not just from having a terrible job or being in a terrible circumstance. Stay at home. Mothers can experience extreme burnout because that is a job that never, ever stops. So I want to be clear it's not just about having a hard time at work.
Tamu Thomas :So I was in the place where I was extremely passionate. I felt very galvanized and compelled by the work I was doing and who I was working with. I've also got like high functioning codependent tendencies, so I wanted to save everyone. I wanted to make things better and one of my core values is growth and transcendence and I love it when people want to grow and change. I love to support that work. And then that was all fine and well until I had a child. And when I had a child, your priorities change, your energy is different, your energy needs to be directed in different ways and I just found it harder and harder to do the job Dovetailed with I was becoming more senior, more experienced and I had a real passion for the type of cases people wanted nothing to do with.
Tamu Thomas :So you know, to be quite honest, when it was a case of, say, physical abuse or sexual abuse where there was like a clear this thing happened on this day or on these dates, people like that because it's very clear, whereas I liked the more unconscious things that build over time. So I was working with cases of like chronic abuse and neglect that would happen over time, more psychological stuff, parents with what used to be known as borderline personality disorder, people with undiagnosed mental health and all of those kinds of things, and that work was very, very taxing. Working with those client groups is very taxing and I just found myself feeling like I was literally dragging myself around. I would wake up exhausted, I would go to sleep exhausted, I would have heart palpitations, waking up in the morning with a really dull but dry feeling headache, dull, pounding was normal. I dismissed it. It's because I wasn't coping very well? No, of course I wasn't, but it's because I wasn't organized, I was lazy, I wasn't motivated enough, I was very, very critical of myself and I left full time social work and became an independent social worker with my own practice, because I thought if I can manage my workload myself and I can choose the work I do, it would be better for me. And I was still having the same thing, like I literally couldn't get it together. My outlook was very negative. I'm usually a very optimistic person. The exhaustion was I was, I was tired to my soul, to my core, and the resilience I used to have was fading and I found myself snapping and tutting and lots of like, snapping at my daughter for doing things that were normal for a child her age.
Tamu Thomas :And it culminated with I was going to court. It was a very contentious court case. I was giving expert evidence, which was fine. That was a normal part of my job, the way I work. I work from a place of integrity. Even if I'm making hard decisions, even if I'm recommending that families are separated, I come from a very grounded place, so grounded that sometimes I can be a bit sassy when the barrister for the parents was treating me like I was on trial at the old Bailey. So I going to court didn't phase me.
Tamu Thomas :But on that occasion, as I was making my way to court, I was feeling really hot and clammy. I felt like my knees had disappeared. I felt like I forgot how to exhale, so I just felt like I was inhaling, inhaling and wasn't able to do anything else. And I made my way to a bus stop and I was literally holding on to the railings because I thought I was going to die. I contemplated calling an ambulance and still I was being hard on myself. This is ridiculous. You can't call an ambulance, just pull yourself together. And then I remembered some tools. So I started to think about what I could taste, touch, smell here, breathing a little bit deeper, feeling my feet on the ground, bringing myself into the present, managed to get to court, give the evidence in that contentious case. And I thought you know what. I can't keep doing this.
Tamu Thomas :And I made an appointment with my GP because as I sat on the train back home, I was like you haven't liked yourself for a long time, like you've had so many days of talking to yourself horribly and thinking that you are grot bags personified. I thought I have to do something about it. And when I went to the GP, I got referred to. I asked for the referral to psychotherapeutic services and between the GP and the psychologist I saw they said to me that what I described as and also I didn't recognize anxiety because the client group I worked with their anxiety looks so different from what I was experiencing. It couldn't be that I was anxious. It meant that I was bad, I was doing something wrong, I was at fault. So when they explained what anxiety was so basically they said you've got a severe level of moderate depression, and that severe level of moderate depression has been left unchecked and has manifested as anxiety and what you're describing as heightened periods of anxiety. Those are actually panic attacks. And at that moment I let out a sigh of relief. I was like, thank goodness, something is wrong. I'm not wrong, because that was the message I had. Something is wrong.
Tamu Thomas :And I began the journey of reclaiming all of my parts that felt like they were scattered all over the place, gathering myself so that I could be whole, and taking a real deep look at who I am, what contributed to me functioning the way I did, so that I could start to consider not just what do I need from this life, but what do I want from this life, so that I could start to make powerful choices about how I live, how I love and how I work and that led me to setting up my business. I thought I've wanted to work for myself since my aunt, at the age of six. I remember looking at this woman who was an international business woman. She looks so radiant and jolly and bright in comparison to the women around me. She didn't have children, she worked for herself, she flew all around the world doing this work and she just looked like joy and I thought I want to be an international business woman when I grow up because I want to be like her, and so I didn't really think about that at the time, but it was definitely deep within my subconscious. I thought I want to take the skills, I have been able to develop the qualifications and I want to utilize them to support women who want to grow, who want to flourish, who want to develop.
Tamu Thomas :Because when I had my awakening, what I realized was I was surrounded by women, whether it was in my personal life, on TV, social media, at work. It was like a disco ball of mirrors reflecting back some element of my experience, and I was like do you know what? I want to change my life. And I know I've got the skills to support people who want to change their life, not people who want to spot change here and there, people that actually want to transform themselves and their experience. And my focus is on women who are like 35 plus, women who are approaching their mid-years, because something really beautiful doesn't feel beautiful at the time, it feels harrowing, but something really magical happens around 38, when we have like 40 on the horizon, and I think up until that age it's a rite of passage.
Tamu Thomas :You're supposed to overwork, you're supposed to give yourself away, you're supposed to please, and then you start heading towards those mid-years and those mid-years say it's time to be sovereign.
Tamu Thomas :And being sovereign is so alien it can feel really terrifying because you're going to have to advocate for yourself in a way you never have before.
Tamu Thomas :You're going to have to say yes when you really mean it, no when you mean it. You're going to be guided by your pleasure, which is going to piss a lot of people off. You're not going to be the same person you were previously and people get really cross because they've got a set idea of who you are and the function you have in your life. And when you're like that's not me anymore, that can be perceived as really offensive because you're making a change and we don't do well with change, especially when we don't understand what's going on. So I thought you know I want to support more women to be able to make these changes and not be kind of like, have this righteous indignation, like I'm doing the work and you're not changing. But I am but so that we could be role models, so that we could be embodying and practicing the change we want to see in the world and support other women to do the same by our actions.
Flic Taylor :Oh, you know, I mean, obviously I've heard your story before and it just really, it really helped me in some very dark, dark moments. You speak of the apathy where you're like, all of a sudden you're not even you, you don't even care, you can't care. And I remember hearing that story of you holding onto the rails before you went into court and at that time I, just the week before, been seeing my doctor in regards to I was like I think I'm having a heart attack, but I'm like I'm 42. How can I have a heart attack? But it's real, isn't it?
Flic Taylor :Yeah, and it's interesting because obviously you know I've been through burnout recovery, I've been on this journey, and so you start kind of, you know, as you say, picking up those fragmented parts of yourself. And you are so right. You get to a point you're like, hang on a minute here I was thinking my body had let myself down. I had let myself down because I inner critic is so harsh. Then you reach a point you're like, oh, you know what? I am now going to rewrite this rulebook and I am starting again and I am like it's kind of that's when we need people like you and your book that's coming out because it's. This is a ring message that, okay, yeah, right, this has happened and now we're going to change, because there's that where you're like I don't know, will I ever be able to work again, will I ever be?
Tamu Thomas :myself.
Flic Taylor :It's that those dark moments are dark.
Tamu Thomas :Oh, my goodness, they are, they are, they are and it's you know, when you realize how you've been conditioned to abandon yourself and give yourself away. That is so painful Because, for a number of reasons, the vast majority of us have had experiences in our childhood where we weren't seen for who we were. We couldn't be seen for who we were, and the adults around us not because, you know. Sometimes they were, you know, unkind, but not because most of the time it's not because they were unkind, because they didn't have their meet needs met properly either. So we get used to cycles of our needs not being met and because that's a pattern that's familiar and as long as something's familiar and we learn how to have some level of control, that becomes our set point, so we start to inhabit that and then we become the adults that let ourselves down. We become the uncaring authority figures and when you come face to face with that, it's really painful because the longest relationship you're ever going to have in this lifetime is with yourself and to see the way you have let yourself down and, to use you know very London language, muddle yourself off, which is like you know, treat yourself with disregard, You're like how, and you can fall into blaming and shaming yourself.
Tamu Thomas :And one of the first things I say in my book, in chapter one, it starts with it's not your fault. It's not your fault, it's how we've been conditioned. It's how, if you think about I use this analogy all the time but if you think about, like, when you're little, it's always the cousins you're playing with your toys, your cousins come round, you've just picked up a toy, but your cousin wants the same toy. Immediately, you're told share, let's so, and so have a turn. Sharing is caring, Sharing is caring, but what we are taught? We're not taught how to share. We're taught how to give away what gives us pleasure because it makes us look good. So we are taught it's okay for us to feel bad on the inside as long as it looks good on the outside. And that pattern is amplified for girls and people who are socialized as girls, and so we move that forward. So, rather than being kind which Brené Brown teaches us, kindness has boundaries we end up being nice, we end up being good, which means we take away from ourselves and we give it to other people, hoping they'll say oh, you're such a good girl, you're so nice. Oh, we can rely on Flick. She'll do anything for anyone. Yeah, she's really busy, but she will.
Tamu Thomas :So you're the person who is overwhelmed at work, swimming in stuff, and people will still say, oh, so, and so is having a baby. Can you organize the office baby shower? Oh, can you type up the minutes and all of that kind of stuff and you feel like, Well gosh, I've got so much to do, but I don't want them to think I'm bad. I don't want them to think I'm mean, I don't want them to think I'm not good. So you overextend yourself. That becomes normal, and then people reward you. Oh, Felicity is selfless, so self selfless, Tam, we will do anything for anyone.
Tamu Thomas :And the woman who has boundaries, who says, no, I can't do that, or I can't do that right now, or how important is this? Because I've got this, this and that to do? They are called selfish. They are a bitch. They are the person that doesn't care about anybody else, and I call time on that. We need more of us. Who wants to be selfless? I want you to be selfful. I want you to be so full of yourself that your yes is yes and your no is no. So when you're invited out, people know you're not just coming to show your face because you feel like you have to. You're not half assing it. You're there with your whole ass. You really want to be there and you're having a damn good time and everybody is appreciative of your energy because you're not there, reluctantly. I want us to be able to say a whole full body, sensual yes to life, and in order to do that, we have to say to a no, to a whole load of things we've been conditioned to say yes to.
Flic Taylor :Absolutely, because so much I'm a big believer, I'm an energy girl, so I'm a big believer in energy. And yes, it's interesting because even when you're kind of an empath, you're a care and overgiver, all all those attributes that go hand in hand with burnout very easily.
Tamu Thomas :Yep.
Flic Taylor :You're. I find that doesn't? You get a lot of pleasure out of helping out, of sharing out, of nicting people? I love that, but comes the point that you are depleted at the end of the day. You are constantly depleted and it just gets more and more. That's when I find the inner critic becomes louder for me.
Tamu Thomas :Absolutely.
Flic Taylor :And then I don't. I'm sure this happens with your clients, it's happened with my, it's happened with me. It's very easy for us to then not only have a stick for like what's wrong with me, it's my fault, I can't, I'm not good enough, I can't manage this workload, I can't do all these things. But then you pick up a stick and you're like, oh my gosh, like I'm really bad on myself as well, like that's the problem with self-care. Sometimes we have to like go underneath it, don't we See what?
Tamu Thomas :the professional people are. Yeah, there's a quote it's in my book by Frederick Nietzsche and he says when we are tired, we are attacked by ideas we conquered long ago. So what we need to recognize is that when we are I'm not just talking about a regular level of tired, oh, it's bedtime too soon I'm tired. When we are living in a state of tiredness, when we are constantly exhausted, our body is in a state of survival. When we are in a state of survival, it's very difficult for that executive function, that prefrontal cortex, to be rational and logical and make sense of what we know to be true. We are hijacked by fear because we're in a state of survival. And when we're in that state, that inner critic goes unchecked because we don't have the capacity to say no, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold on a minute. Is this true? This doesn't sound like the truth. But when we can cultivate enough resource, which starts with our energy, the things we dismiss as basic needs but are actually our essential, foundational, fundamental needs. So that is moving our body, the way we need to move our body. Making sure that we are hydrated Even being 5% dehydrated has an impact on your brain functioning. Making sure we're eating nourishing foods, making sure we're getting adequate sleep, trying our best to make sure our environment is supportive of us, and I mean the physical environment we live in and the environment our friendships take place in. All of these things are essential things we need to have. Like, you and I both have our own businesses, creating the income you need to create so that your needs can be met. All of these things need to be in place, otherwise, we are in an autonomic nervous system state of survival and it doesn't matter what we think about mindset, about these very cognitive processes and tools we have. If your body is in a physical state of survival, mindset won't mean anything. In fact, mindset can be very oppressive. Polyvagal theory teaches us that your story, the narrative you tell about yourself, follows your state. It follows your biology, your physiology. So we need to make sure that we are creating a biological landscape, a physiology that supports the story we want to tell about ourselves. That is oh so important.
Tamu Thomas :So I'm sharing that because when we think about self care, we think about these momentary things we do here and there. Oh, I'm really knackered. I'm gonna have a nice bath before bed or I'm gonna book a spa weekend, if you're in the financial position to do so or we're gonna go out there and do something. Self care is having the boundaries. You need to have healthy relationships. Self care listen, I love a Snickers. Right, I'm not saying don't have those sorts of things, but it's about making sure that you are eating food that is nourishing for you.
Tamu Thomas :As well as having those Snickers bars, it's about making sure you make it easy for yourself to stay hydrated. It's something that a lot of my clients fall down on. So it's things like on average, most adults need to have at least two liters of water a day. Get yourself a one liter jug or get yourself a pint glass. Four pints is about two liters or you've got your two one liter jugs and you've got it accessible. And if you need to because at first, when I was really neglecting myself, I would put a reminder on my phone to drink Every hour I would have a reminder on my phone for me to do that. Like that is self care. If you know that social media scrolling is an addiction for you, getting an app that prevents you from accessing social media all day long. Body doubling I've got ADHD If I body double and work with somebody on Zoom. So we're co-working together doing our own thing.
Tamu Thomas :That is self care. Those things are self care and they're the type of self care You're not adding to your to-do list. You don't have to go to you know your local drugstore bubble bath aisle and buy all of these things. These are all things that are within your remit. Self care is also saying to a friend I'm really resisting this thing I need to do. I'm keeping myself accountable because I'm responsible. But part of that is I'm telling you at 6pm I'm going to send you a voice note saying I've finished my sales page and I'm gonna ask you if you have time, if you can have a look at it, cause that's gonna help me take responsibility and keep myself accountable, rather than outsourcing our accountability to other people, asking them to send us countless reminders.
Tamu Thomas :That is the type of self care, when done on an ongoing basis, compounds and transforms your life Because, rather than just setting goals that are like lofty and up there, you're raising your minimum standards. So those goals that once seemed really lofty because they're far away from where you are now, you're actually rising your lower limits, your minimum standard. So it's not as far from that goal, which means you're not stretching as far to obtain that goal, because you built a sturdy foundation to step up of and our systems that I write about a lot in this book. So I refer to them as the trinity of oppression, white supremacy, capitalism and patriarchy. They keep us in an infantile state of wanting the approval of everyone and everything other than us. And when we are clear about who we are and what we need and we raise our minimum standards, we can see those systems and structures for what they are and rather, being caught up in it's so bad.
Tamu Thomas :I'm a victim of this thing because I'm black, I'm a woman, I've got a disability. I'm not. You put yourself in a position where you're like the system is not set up, the system doesn't recognize my humanity, the system doesn't recognize my beauty, but guess what I do? So I'm gonna operate from a place of sovereignty and I'm gonna create something new and I'm gonna keep doing it and I'm gonna show other people who want to do it how to do it and I'm gonna create a ripple effect because the people who want to are gonna come and the people who are witnessing is gonna change their subconscious as well and they're gonna start making changes too, and collectively. We come together and we make those changes and that's how we disrupt the system. It's not individuals, it's not for us to be doing on our own in silos, which is why I love group work, which is why I've got a membership community, because there is strength in numbers and when we come together doing our work and supporting and championing other people doing their work, we make huge tides of change.
Tamu Thomas :If you think about our history in the UK the suffragettes it might have initially been the idea of one woman, but that one woman Emily Pankhurst, or Emeline Pankhurst she started talking to other people and they started to talk to other people. They didn't have the internet, they didn't have hashtags. They were physically talking and being in community with other people and they came together as a community and they made great change the civil rights movement in America, the abolition of slavery in the UK, the Bristol bus boycotts. That happened when unions were preventing people of color from getting jobs on the buses. It was people. Somebody had an idea. They changed that, they shared that idea with other people and collectively they could stand up against the system and I'm sharing that.
Tamu Thomas :I know I've said a lot, but I'm sharing that because if we think how can I, as an individual, stand up against patriarchy? How can I, as an individual, stand up against white supremacy or capitalism and the way it's ruining people and planet? We're not supposed to do it as an individual. With the most pro-social creature on this planet. Connection and belonging is known as the genius of our species. We need to utilize that genius and come together so that we can create change that isn't just sustainable but it is regenerative for all of us.
Flic Taylor :Oh Tamu, oh my God, I can't wait to read this book.
Tamu Thomas :Just, I mean, I'm so gutted I didn't think I'm gonna make sure that you are sent a copy immediately, immediately.
Flic Taylor :I just you know I'm listening to you. I've always loved hearing you talk. I really have. There is so much gold in every single sentence. I just there's so much in so much there.
Flic Taylor :I, I can be a bit like never apologize never apologize and if anyone is on I take it back. I take it back. Yes, if anyone is unfamiliar with Tamu's work, go and follow her. I think I've been following you for about eight years now. I've always loved Crazy, I know, I know, and I'm over here in Canada Like I love how connected and small the world can be.
Tamu Thomas :There is a positive side to it, absolutely yeah.
Flic Taylor :And I've I've always loved how you've used the word sovereignty. What you see again, I'm an energy girl and this is where I think your book is so important, because your words have so much energy and empowerment in them that it's very easy when you're coming out to burnout recovery you're straddling that line of wanting to right. I've come out of burnout recovery, I've looked at my foundational pieces. I know what I need to change, what I need to make different. Then it's like there's that fear of I never want to be that depleted again and I'm oh yeah.
Flic Taylor :How much do you push yourself and how much do you nurture yourself. So I love how you talked about the self care, like you literally integrate it throughout your day. There is no Mm-hmm, yeah, it's the self care day. I love that, mm-hmm. I can remember hearing an analogy from you and I loved it. It really like turned a light bulb on for me. It was the buggy analogy. The kid oh yes, in the buggy. Would you mind sharing that Because it was so powerful for me? I just would love people to hear it as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Tamu Thomas :Goodness me, like Flick, you've been around, you've been around man, my goodness. So the buggy. Sometimes we don't want to do the things that are good for us. So I remember there was a little while on Instagram people would be sharing real, saying I'm out on a stupid mental health walk for my stupid mental health, because, like they're really like, I would rather be sitting down eating chips and watching TV. Thank you very much. But what is good for us doesn't always feel good immediately. We don't get that immediate gratification. So I talk about it like sometimes it's like we are ramming ourselves in a buggy.
Tamu Thomas :And I got that analogy because I remember when my daughter was a baby, was very small, she wasn't a baby Like she. Yeah, she was a baby she was, but I just remember she was a bit fractious. Or I just wanted to take her to the park because it would benefit her. I didn't want to go to the park, I would rather be indoors. But I know that for her she would love going to the park with see her little friends like the baby girl, the swings and whatever else. But she didn't know what was going on. She was content doing whatever, or she was miserable, grisly, teething, whatever. So sometimes I would be so conscious about people watching me. It would be like I'm like slamming her in the bush chair. You know, when babies don't want to get in the bush chair, they make their body stiff as a board and you're almost like ramming them in so that you can clasp the seat belts so they're safe inside there. And you, the baby is screaming and wailing. People are looking at you like what on earth are you doing to this child? And then the baby starts to click oh, I think we're going to that place. And they see the park gates and they're ecstatic. It's wonderful. We have to do that with ourselves all the time, like, yeah, I'm 46, I'm still that baby inside.
Tamu Thomas :And there are many times I need to like grab my mindset, ram myself in that buggy, clasp the clasps and get myself to the park so that I can have the things I need. I regularly do that to go to the gym. So for me, I'm a very energetic, passionate person. I need strength training. I've always needed strength training. I need to strength train and sometimes I can be like I don't wanna. I just want to sit at home and watch Netflix, but I know that it's not gonna serve me in the long run. So I have to literally grab myself, strap myself in the car, get myself down to the gym and do that workout.
Tamu Thomas :And then people say don't you feel so much better about it? No, quite often I don't. I don't feel like, oh yeah, well done, girl, you've gone to the gym, fantastic. Sometimes I feel shitty still, but I have respect for myself because I've kept my promise, I've honored my word. I have devoted my energy to that which serves me rather than that which is convenient. So I don't necessarily feel like whoop-de-de-doo, but I feel like you treated yourself as sovereign, and I talk about sovereign a lot.
Tamu Thomas :I know the word is used a lot in spiritual circles and I am a very spiritual person, but I also talk about it from somatic science. So polyvagal theory teaches us about your nervous system, states and being the head of your state. The sovereign is the head of state. What I'm talking about when I'm talking about being sovereign is being the head of your state, being in charge of yourself, not allowing your emotions to drag you around all over the place and say to the emotions sadness, I am here for you, grief, you are very welcome, but you come and sit on my lap. You don't own me, you belong to me. So you come here, grief, and we're going to process, we're going to have some time and then we're going to continue, because if we don't process and we don't have that time, you're going to become a shadow haunting me and homey, don't play that.
Tamu Thomas :I am in charge, I am the sovereign, I am the head of my state. All of my emotions, even the ones we will consider to be bad or negative, they are my wise counsel. So you know, the Queen has her counsel, you are my wise counsel, but you are not the boss. You inform me and you inform my decisions, but you don't rule me. So it's very, very important and again I will say that is self care. Running away from your life and going on holiday or going to a spa, that's dissociation. To be quite honest, that's not self care. Self care is those micro, day by day, moment by moment things, those moment by moment choices you make. And when you don't make that choice, it's about not shaming yourself. It's about meeting yourself with compassion and understanding and nurturing yourself up instead of beating yourself down. Oh my God darling.
Flic Taylor :I mean, I have been like I know this. I've been listening to you for years. I'm just sat here going, oh my God, someone's going to be listening to us for the first time and we're like, whoa, it's just incredible. I just you're an absolute gift to the world. You really are.
Flic Taylor :I was saying before we hit record that you know I'm so excited for your book. It's going to be amazing. It's going to have such an incredible ripple effect and it is the perfect time right now. This is it. But it can only be you and it can only have your energy and your words, because there's just this magic in you, this alchemy that's just like, oh Tammu, we so need it, we so need it, don't we? We're coming out of the pandemic. We're all shifting, we're all changing. And if there's anyone like me where you're, like you've done that burnout recovery work, you've looked at your foundation, you know what you need to change. But some of those steps are hard to take because you're rewriting the whole book. You're going, you're rewriting those old conditioned patterns and I love how you are just chucking buckets of empowerment at that.
Tamu Thomas :Do you know? So I refer to sovereign. I used to have a group coaching program called sovereign and the tagline was you are powerful, it's time to treat yourself that way. All of us are so powerful. Our bodies, this, this sophisticated piece of technology we live inside, has been developed throughout the entire history of this earth. We contain the wisdom of all ages and we talk about the gut brain axis.
Tamu Thomas :I believe that women and people that were socialized as girls have a pleasure power axis. We have a clitoris, for a reason, right, we are stimulated by pleasure. For a reason. I believe that people that were ostracized and killed for being witches I believe they were women who knew how to pleasure themselves, who said yes when they meant it, no when they meant it, and they were therefore vilified for it. We have an infinite resource in a finite vessel If we can learn to take care of our needs, not shame ourselves for being tired when we're tired, not tell ourselves off for needing the things that we need, Like if you have to go to the supermarket that was, that is, three miles further, because they sell the blend of coffee you appreciate and you save. That in the morning is become part of your morning ritual. It's not high maintenance to go that three extra miles to go and get that.
Tamu Thomas :Pleasure is one of the strongest signs of safety to our nervous system. You do not feel pleasureed if you don't feel safe. Pleasure helps us to feel safe and I don't mean we're protected from all the ills of the world. Nothing quote unquote negative happens to us. I'm talking about a level of safety that resources us, like we have a wellspring within us. That means when the twists and turns of life occur, we're like cool, I'm resourced enough I'm able to deal with that. Instead of being risk averse, we become risk aware and then we can be courageous enough to take the risk of truly living. So when we're making these changes and we're up, leveling and upgrading our lives and we're being who we want to be in the world, it can be terrifying because we don't have control. Because we're being somebody new. We're like a new girl at school again. We're beginning all over again.
Tamu Thomas :But also, when you're making those kind of changes on a cellular level, your nervous system is changing. So the people around you, whose nervous systems were used to your nervous system when it was wonky, don't record like they see you, but they don't recognize the new energy you're emitting from your nervous system and that can make them treat you with contempt, or can make them distance themselves from you or think that you think you're better than them, simply because they don't recognize your frequency anymore, because your mirror neurons aren't shining in the way they used to, which is why it's also important that when we're doing this growth work, we make a conscious effort to develop relationships with people who are on a similar path of life. They don't need to be doing the same thing that we're doing, but we need to be around people who are not going to shame us or not going to be confused by us when we're geeking out on this new method we have learned that's going to help us regulate our nervous system, or because we decided we're not drinking alcohol anymore, or we're not listening to certain types of music, or we're not going to certain types of places, or we're not using these chemicals on our bodies anymore. We need to be around people who are growth minded and because they are more concerned with growth than being right.
Tamu Thomas :When you want to grow, you know you're going to make a ton of mistakes. You know you're going to be wrong about things. You know you're going to look at the person thing. Oh my goodness, I did the best I could with what I had then, but now I know different, I'm going to be different. We need to consciously put ourselves in those environments and not have an expectation that the people we've rolled with for a long time are going to be able to keep up with us, which is why I find online community so helpful, because we can connect with people all over the world that have similar interests to us and they can become a supportive resource.
Tamu Thomas :And when you do that, relationships that should no longer exist because you're emitting a different frequency. It will change those and they'll either take a backseat or they'll fall off. You don't have to be doing and you do this and you don't do that and you do the other, but also your role modeling. So people who are sparked by that. They'll be like oh, do you know what? I'm going to evolve as well. And then there are some friendships that you'll be like.
Tamu Thomas :I've known you since I was five. You do call my mom auntie. My nan thinks you're one of her grandchildren. Our relationship can remain like that. I'm just going to accept that our relationship operates in that sphere, but I need to cultivate relationships where the whole of me can be present and involved and embraced. And in fact people fan my flames and encourage me to be bigger because they know I've got more to give and they're not threatened by it. But I just want to emphasize we are I said it earlier, I'm going to say again we're the most pro social creatures on this planet. We're not supposed to be doing our growth and evolution work. We're not supposed to be doing the vast majority of things on our own. But certainly when we're stepping into uncharted territory and we're growing in ways that we haven't before and maybe we're allowing ourselves to be seen in ways we haven't done before, we can counteract and soothe that vulnerability by co regulating with other people who are on a similar path.
Flic Taylor :Yeah, I love that you've mentioned that, because you know, and it doesn't matter where you are in the world, this is where we're very lucky. We live in a connected digital world because you know, as you say, you've got your membership and that's where people are able to come together and it's kind of your vibrato tribe like and you it's like we're passing a permission slip around each other to be like literally. You and I love you mentioned the pleasure angle. I mean, I'm a self serve checkout orgasm. It's so important.
Flic Taylor :And we were back in the eighties and nineties and like no, no, no, no, no, don't be thinking about that, it's all, and actually it's the one thing I should be doing every day like hello.
Tamu Thomas :Yes, how hard to be agree. How hard to be agree. And I've got this workshop which is called the potent power of pleasure, and every time I have delivered that workshop, women have been in tears because of the way particularly all the millennials, gen X we were brought up to believe that our pleasure and sensuality were to be given to men. And when I'm talking about no, no, no, your pleasure, your sensuality, your sexuality is for you to enjoy and share, choose to, but it's for you to. It's not about you giving it away and gosh flick the number of people I have worked with and they're like. I've been in this relationship, whether they're married or not. I've been in this relationship since I was in my mid 20s and the sex has never been satisfying. Yeah, and I'm like, and they don't even begin. They don't even know how to begin to articulate that to their partner. A because they they'd rather feel bad than have a difficult conversation with their partner, and B because they were like. They had this unconscious thing that what is supposed to be given away? I'm supposed to be giving him pleasure, I'm supposed to, you know, lay back and think of England. And they don't want to be accused of being promiscuous or whatever the words are, which also means there's no time for self discovery. If they do masturbate, it's a secret that nobody knows about, and they do it, you know, and they feel shame about it, and they do it quickly and don't think about it, and I'm like self. Pleasure is a way you begin to really understand the landscape of your body, Even if it's not masturbation, like when you're bathing yourself, when you're showering, like allowing your hands to run across your body and feel how it feels, to feel you and how it feels to be felt by you. Feel the parts of your body that are more sensitive to touch, the parts of your body that are a bit more resistant to touch. Get to own your landscape and how you feel. When you have an understanding of that, you're in a much better position to be able to have a constructive, challenging, yes, but constructive conversation with whoever about what helps you feel pleasure, what enables you to be really satisfied. And women are scared to do that because they're going to have to face a lot of truths about the ways they denied themselves pleasure in all aspects of their lives For decades, for decades, for decades. And I'll just say again it's not your fault, it's not your fault, it's how we've been conditioned. It is how we've been conditioned.
Tamu Thomas :I went last year. I went to a sex and relationships talk. There is a woman called Oloni, she is a sex and relationships expert and I went to go and see her at the South Bank and I took my mom and my daughter my daughter was 16 at the time and I didn't explain properly to my daughter what we were going to because she would have said she didn't want to come and it was a learning experience, for it was intergenerational learning. It was a learning experience for my mom, for me and for my daughter, and we were like me and my mom were talking.
Tamu Thomas :My daughter was, she was listening, but she wasn't getting involved, but she was listening to us talk about our not graphic, but our experience of relationships and sex and pleasure and knowing that not not, we were worthy. We are not that we deserved. We do deserve, but we are entitled to experience a level of pleasure that was previously denied to us, and I'll go back again to that pleasure power axis. Why are we denied that pleasure? Because pleasureed women are powerful women and powerful women will totally disrupt the system in which we live.
Flic Taylor :Yes, because okay. So you give yourself a lovely little self-serve checkout orgasm. It all, everything, all of the cells in your body. It's going back to your needs. It brings everything back, that compass point, your needs, and when you think about it, burn up the working environment like the world it's all about. It's never about your needs and it's always having that disconnection from your body.
Tamu Thomas :Yeah, and that it sends your body a sign of danger. There's no other way I can put it. It sends your sign that a body of danger. Oh, this deadline. Oh I've got to get this thing. Oh, my daughter forgot to tell me she needs this for her economics at school. Oh, I've got to pick up so and so. Oh, my goodness it's so and so's birthday. I don't really want to go but I'm knackered. But if I don't go she's going to think I'm terrible. All like every day things. Every day things send us signs of danger.
Tamu Thomas :I did a workshop and I had hosted an event. So I host an event I've done it twice now and I'm going to do it every year called Indigo Monday. It's a counter to the notion of Blue Monday and the first one we were talking about ordinary things that make us feel anxious. People talked about when they want. My one was like I was talking about everyday, ordinary things. So my one was when you get to the escalator and it's not working, just that sudden notion that it's not working and you're going to have to walk down it. It makes me feel about anxious, like am I stepping in the right place? Somebody talked about when they have to go from one train platform to the other and there's not much time. Somebody talked about racial like racial microaggressions at work and assimilating and pretending it didn't bother her. Somebody talked about when somebody says to you we need to talk and there's nothing else in, like, oh my gosh, what have I done All of these things? Or when we, when we know that a journey is going to take us 45 minutes and then we get in the car we've got an hour, we've given ourselves 15 minutes we get in the car. There's been an accident which means the journey is going to take 90 minutes we can start to feel anxious.
Tamu Thomas :Anxiety is your body's way of telling you you are at risk of serious harm or danger. It could be a fatality. So we talk about anxiety very casually. Or I feel anxious about showing up online. I feel anxious about putting my prices up. I feel anxious about saying to my husband I want you to do this because that's how I get my orgasms.
Tamu Thomas :We ask we haven't evolved much since we were those hunter-gatherers where saying something or doing something that was wrong could get us kicked out of our tribe and we're vulnerable to the elements, to prey animals or opposing tribes. That nervous system is the same nervous system we've got now. So when we're saying we're anxiety, we're anxious about these things inside ourselves, we're worried that we're at risk of serious harm, when we know this information we can begin to give ourselves, we can connect with ourselves, we can put it into context so we can start to make powerful choices. Another system that has capacity and is able to be risk aware rather than risk of us, needs that connection with self, with others, so that we can then put things into context, so we can then make informed, powerful choices. But because we don't know this information, we then run on autopilot, so we make assumptions, so we're not connecting with ourselves, we disconnect, we numb.
Tamu Thomas :We try to connect with external sources of validation and work, which is why we do things like overwork. We don't know when to stop working, and that's not just in the workplace, that's at home. We can't sit and relax, we can't rest. We're cleaning this, we're decluttering that, we're taking this to the rubbish dump, we're cooking this thing, we're doing all sorts of things, but when we can remember, actually, if I slow down, if I connect with myself, just a couple of inhalations, exhalations. What do I need in this moment? That's the connection.
Tamu Thomas :I'm feeling anxious and I remember anxiety is my body's way of saying I'm at risk of serious harm. If I'm late for this GP appointment, am I going to die? No, I'm not. I might miss the GP, but hopefully there'll be understanding. So you're giving yourself the context. So now I can make a choice. I can either sit in this car, be really angry, racing to every red light, only having to hard break I can get myself into a state, or I can do some deep breathing, I can pay attention to what I'm doing, I can be present and know that I can get myself there in a state, or I can regulate myself and relax myself and get there in one piece and sort it out.
Tamu Thomas :When I get there, it makes such a difference and when it comes to things like burnout, this is the sort of thing that prevents burnout. So I had my massive experience with burnout and then, fast forwarding, about three years later, I was in a meeting with a colleague and she was like Tammie, why don't you get stressed, why don't you get angry about things? And I'm like listen, stress, anger, all of that they're really expensive If you think about your life force, energy. That's expensive energy. So if I'm going to get stressed, if I'm going to get angry about something, it needs to be worth it. The energy I expend needs to be worth the exchange. Otherwise I'm not doing it.
Tamu Thomas :Because most of the time we're getting stressed and angry about things we can find a solution for If we take a moment, be present, do that connection, do that context and then make a powerful choice. And it's not that I don't get angry, it's not that I don't get frustrated. I get all of those things. But I will check in with myself, like, am I angry simply because I'm tired? Am I angry because I'm angry? Am I angry because I haven't moved myself enough? So I then don't have the resilience necessary to cope with this thing?
Tamu Thomas :When we have this you know I'm not trying to sound like some weird TikTok account conspiracy theorists, but the government people don't want us to know this because we will be powerful, we will stop extracting and commodifying from ourselves. We will stop consuming to try and ameliorate ourselves. Instead, we will resource ourselves and power ourselves up. And no, we don't have to buy the latest candle, we don't have to purchase every course, coaching program, whatnot, whatnot. Going on, we can make conscious choices about things that are going to enhance us. So we stop looking at people, places and things as saviours and we think is this going to contribute to me, is this going to bring out the best in me, or is it going to make me dependent? And a lot of the things we have in our society are built to make us dependent. Why? Because when we're dependent, we will spend more, we will fuel the economy, which is supposed to trickle down. It never trickles down, it only trickles up, and we're caught in that perpetual cycle.
Flic Taylor :Yeah, oh my God, absolutely, absolutely. I mean, you're so empowering, tamu. You know what's interesting I'm just thinking when you're telling us your story of, like, the social work dates and how you loved not necessarily the clear cut cases. You love the cases that you had to really delve into and what. And I'm like, oh my God, you were always meant for this path, tamu, literally, literally, Social work. You were never meant to be. You're up here, darling. I'm just sat here going, oh my, God, thank you so much.
Tamu Thomas :Okay, I'm just going to let that land and I'm not going to push it away.
Flic Taylor :I'm going to let that land For a moment Because I'm just literally going huh, you were never destined for just here. You and your words and your, you know empowerment and oh, the love you give the put out. It was meant to be here. You were always that person. So it's interesting, isn't it? We can burn out, but we can call direct and then go back on our path and go higher.
Tamu Thomas :There's. We can like this is going to sound so stop helping, but it is what it is. We can choose to be in post traumatic stress this order or we can learn to choose post traumatic growth. They're both available to us, they are both of it and I'm not, I'm not bypassing this is somatic science, this is neurobiology, but it takes us slowing down and being conscious and Like we have to. It's that baby in the buggy again.
Tamu Thomas :We have to really hold ourselves accountable because the we have practiced over and over and over again. So the neural pathways for post traumatic stress disorder are very, very strong, but with repetition, with community, with being very clear about who and how we want to be in this world. When we deviate from the new path we're creating because we will, we're supposed to, rather than telling ourselves, often shaming and blaming, we can remember that default pattern is so strong that me overwriting that pattern is gonna be work for a lifetime, because every time I expand and go into a new, unfamiliar territory, those neural pathways are gonna start kicking up again, because our body, our nervous system, is designed to protect us. Our body, our nervous system doesn't care about us growing and self-actualizing. So we have to really do the work and, again, we're not designed to do that work alone. So it's important that we're in community with other people and I'm not just saying you have to pay for that community whilst I would love people to inquire about my membership community, you can do that with friends.
Tamu Thomas :I have got a what's that? Group of girlfriends Business girlfriends that I actively sought out and said would you be my friend? I've messaged them on social media and say we've been flirting for so long. Would you be my friend? They are my community, they are the people I go to and I say, gosh, I'm About to say this thing. It feels very Controversial in my system. It's probably not. I'm catching my butt cheeks. Can you please send me some words of encouragement? I'm stating my need and that fuels me to be able to take the action I want to take. You can have a book club where you decide that you're gonna read books that really challenge your way of thinking and you meet on a regular basis. Like that is community. That is gonna help you feel strong and stable to show up as you want to show up in this world.
Flic Taylor :Oh, my gosh. You know that that's the perfect place to land on, I think, for this chat. I mean, and I urge everyone listening to now go and hit your website and start following the thread on all of these, this amazing what you do and all of the the gifts you share, and Hit that pre-order button on your book. There's no doubt it's gonna. It's a game changer. It just it. It's ready. It's ready to be birthed into the world and it can only have been you. I'm convinced of it.
Tamu Thomas :I'm literally good that I'm gonna write that it could only have been me. I'm gonna have that where I can see it every day.
Flic Taylor :I'll email it to you. Why thank you? Thank you In your file or on your wall away, because I really do believe that in every fiber of my being. I really do. It's incredible and this has been such oh my god, this is Amazing chat. I just know it's you. You're going to impact someone through this chat, like you did With me back in August 2020, like I can still remember sitting at the desk.
Flic Taylor :Amazing and just being like, oh, my whole body just melt. Oh my god, I'm not alone, it wasn't my fault. Okay, okay, because.
Tamu Thomas :I understand nation that people feel yeah, yeah, yeah, but there's nothing wrong with any of us. We don't need more self-improvements, we need systemic change.
Flic Taylor :Oh, you're amazing, tamu. I've been asking, at the end of these incredible conversations, quick fire or light heart your questions, because we all answer differently. So I was wondering on your dodgy tough days, do you opt for move your body or move the remote?
Tamu Thomas :Move my body, I will put on, I'll tell you. You know, cool J mama said knock you out or dizzy rascal, stop that. Yeah, that baseline and that like Assertive almost aggression Can shift the funk. Oh.
Flic Taylor :All your chakras are like. Literally, literally yeah, yeah, amazing, amazing. Okay, back of almonds or bag of Maltesers.
Tamu Thomas :Maltesers, maltesers. I gotta be honest with you. Maltesers almonds are not my favorite nut. If you had said brazil nut.
Flic Taylor :Okay, right, do you ask for help or are you happy to hermit?
Tamu Thomas :Oh, my pattern is hermit. I'm growing into asking for help.
Flic Taylor :Yeah, me too, me too. Well done, yeah, okay. Now, what's the one self-compassionate thing you're gonna do today that your future self will thank you for?
Tamu Thomas :My one self-compassionate thing is I am okay, I haven't booked the yoga class, but instead of doing strength training today, I'm gonna sneak into the yoga class and hope somebody doesn't turn up.
Flic Taylor :Okay, perfect, yeah, oh, more tamu, listen. Thank you so so much for your time and because you know it's not just a case of just doing a podcast and turning up and giving me a. Like you, I know you just give so much Energy and gold and this is going to have really impacted someone's life. Well, we'll never know, we'll never know that person, but what you have just said in this last all good has just caused a shift for the better. So, thank you, thank you so much.
Tamu Thomas :I'm so grateful, thank you.
Flic Taylor :Thank you, take care, bye. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of everyday burnout conversations. Take a peek at the show notes for any links to items discussed today, and if you want to continue the burnout conversation, you can find me on social media, flicktaylorites, or you can head to my website, flicktaylorcom. If you're curious and want to learn more on what it's like to work with me, want to one. So in the meantime, rest up, don't forget to take good care of you and bye for now.