Everyday Burnout Conversations
Everyday burnout conversations is an honest podcast sharing the burnout experiences of others from all walks of life. Host, Flic Taylor, is a writer whose passion for burnout arose when she became a mental health writer dealing with severe burnout - and yes, the irony is not lost on her! Enjoy these weekly conversations sharing stories of surviving and thriving, all delightfully wrapped up in epic truths, compassion, and humour.
Everyday Burnout Conversations
Cath Counihan | Unraveling the ties between childhood trauma and adult perfectionism
In this episode, I share an everyday burnout conversation with Cath Counihan.
Cath Counihan, an integrative trauma psychotherapist, joins me to shine a light on burnout, tracing its roots from childhood experiences to our relentless pursuit of perfection as adults. My heart-to-heart with Cath examines the physiological shackles we unknowingly place on our nervous systems, and how to embrace the mantra of 'good enough' to find peace amidst the chaos.
Feeling disconnected from your inner self can sometimes be like wandering through a fog—knowing there's solid ground somewhere, but unable to find it. This episode weaves together the tales of how unaddressed trauma and societal pressures can lead to that sense of disorientation, and the importance of realigning with our core through practices of self-care. Cath offers the tools and insights necessary to bridge the gap between the mind and body, advocating for the power of body-based therapies and intentional choices towards a more fulfilling existence.
We open up about parenting, working, and the pursuit of joy, acknowledging that the extraordinary often lies in the everyday simplicity we overlook. As we wrap up our conversation, Cath leaves us with an invitation to continue the discussion on burnout, reassuring listeners that every step taken towards balance is a victory in itself.
Join us on this journey of reflection, and perhaps, you'll find the keys to unlocking a more compassionate, balanced life right here.
More about Cath Counihan:
Catherine Counihan is an Integrative Trauma Psychotherapist working in private practice in London. She specialises in complex trauma, perfectionism, shame, nervous system healing, shifting dysfunctional patterns in our families and lives and reparenting.
Cath hosts a popular weekly mental podcast 'Grow Yourself Up' focused on how we can learn to tend to ourselves in adulthood when we have not had our needs met as children, and the challenges of doing this as we parent.
She writes via her Substack: Nurture.Heal.Grow.
Cath has taught for the Bowlby Centre in London and the International Attachment Network, and held multiple workshops. She is accredited by the UK Council for Psychotherapy (UKCP) and has 12 years of clinical experience. Cath had a previous career in financial services and is the mother of 7 year old twin girls.
Find out more on how to work with Cath
Follow her on Instagram
Listen to her podcast Grow Yourself Up
Please note, this podcast is not intended as medical advice. If you're having a rough time or concerned that you're experiencing burnout, remember YOU matter, so please reach out to your doctor or mental health professional for support and guidance tailored for you.
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Fancy a little more burnout chat? Let's continue the conversation.
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Check out my latest work and discover how you can work one-to-one with me to tackle your burnout at flictaylor.com
Hello, I'm Flic and you're listening to Everyday Burnout Conversations. This is the honest podcast that shares burnout expertise, along with the stories of others from all walks of life that strive to inspire and help you manage and avoid burnout. Now, my passion for burnout and self-care came about when I became a mental health writer who'd lost her own mental health to severe burnout and it's an irony that's not lost on me. So get set to enjoy another great conversation, delightfully wrapped up in some wisdom, humour and great storytelling. Enjoy. In today's episode I have a gorgeous chat with Catherine Counihan.
Flic :Catherine is an integrative trauma psychotherapist working in private practice in London. She specialises in complex trauma perfectionism, shame, nervous system healing, shift in dysfunctional patterns in our families and lives and reparenting. One of her areas of expertise is how our own childhoods impact our parenting journey. Her passion is to shift the shame and help each client gain an embodied sense of being good enough. Patterns of overworking and perfectionism are key coping strategies we develop when we have not had our own needs met in childhood, and these patterns in her own life have led Cath to burnout. Cath hosts a popular weekly mental podcast, Grow Yourself Up, and it's focused on how we can learn to tend to ourselves in adulthood when we have not had our needs met as children, and the challenges of doing this as we parent. She writes via her sub-stack, which is Nurture Heal Grow, and she's credited by the UK Council for Psychotherapy and has 12 years of clinical experience. Her previous career was in financial services and she is mum to her seven-year-old twin girls.
Flic :This felt like, oh, such a nourishing chat to have with Cath. I honestly, oh I adore her honesty and really appreciated her compassion and empathy that she shares in regards to certain things that I say. I really hope you enjoy listening to it as much as we had fun recording it. So here's my everyday burnout conversation with the lovely Cath Counihan. Cath, I've been a huge admirer of your work for a very long time.
Flic :I've been following on Instagram for a while because I just love the real authentic, compassionate and caring messages you are constantly putting out to the world and, as someone who you know, when you're dealing with burnout, when you're struggling, you can feel so lonely and isolated and it's just like going along your Instagram. It's like a soothing farm. So thank you, because I know I'm not the only one who you're just like doing that, for it's just beautiful and I love how you really do champion supporting parents who are parenting after their own childhood trauma, because that is tricky and I feel there's a lot of burnt out parents out there who that's the trenches they're walking through. To start us off, I would love you to share a little bit about your own experiences with burnout, because you're.
Flic :I love how you're constantly saying you are walking this path. You are doing the work daily. It's not like you're sat there going. I have the magic fix and this is what it is like. You are doing this work every day, so it would be lovely if you could stop this off by telling us a little bit about your own experiences with burnout.
Cath:Thank you so much for having me on flick. First of all, that's very kind of generous Thank you for asking me and also for your really warm feedback. As you were saying that and you said to me, you're doing this for everyone constantly on your Instagram, I was thinking, oh, am I on my own path to burnout with that? But anyway, that's a secret. Okay, so let me. I guess I mean there's more and more research about parental burnout, but I won't go into the search right now. But I think that my own experience of burnout was before I actually had children, when I used to work in financial services.
Cath:I kind of had three main experiences of burnout. The first one I basically I just couldn't move one day on the sofa and I had terrible muscle pain and everything felt uncomfortable in my body and I had to take some time off work and I didn't know that that was burnout. At the time I also had an undiagnosed autoimmune condition and that's also related to burnout, because I think that you know they've got the same origins essentially. And so then I took some time off work and I worked in financial at that point. I worked in financial services and there's a kind of a culture like of overworking. You know, overworking is really celebrated like long, long nights I worked both in investment banks and in consulting firms and like things like all nighters are really celebrated. Not that I actually did all nighters, thank God, but that late working, getting to work really early, always over delivering, that kind of culture permeates so much of our actual work culture and that time I just took a bit of time off work.
Cath:The second time I was was we had burnout. I got signed off work and what I didn't realize at the time was how common this actually is. You know, like in the where I worked in London, all these big banks and firms have occupational health doctors and they have private centers that they work with. But it's because there's so many of the staff that are going through this and I felt covered in shame at that point and that I was like I couldn't kind of hack it and you know why couldn't I just keep on pushing? And that was also related to my thyroid at that point and so I had to have an increase in my thyroid medication.
Cath:And then the next burnout was really after a very traumatic year in my life and again I got signed off work and then I actually went into an addiction treatment center and I was on a whole process of healing and everything. But I think that it's very interesting to notice how what I noticed about burnout is that it's my own patterns that really drive it and the things that are often celebrated in society are really so unhelpful for us personally. But it takes, you know, like sometimes I mean, listen to me, this is three rounds of burnout and I'm telling you like three separate incidents it takes sometimes you have to have the same thing happen many times before you kind of really get the message. You know, and I'm trying to make sure I don't need to have that happen again.
Flic :You know what, though, that's really reassuring to hear Because, you know the irony is I burnt out and then I started talking about it right and about it, podcasting about it, and then, honestly, I had a little bit of a burnout, but talking about burnout and I was like, oh my God, I'm the most ineffective person to be doing this. But then I spoke to a doctor who had done the same thing, and hearing you say that it that's really reassuring Because it's going to. I know there's going to be people out there going what is wrong with me? Why do I keep doing this? And you know we're so hard on ourselves, aren't we? Yeah?
Cath:So hard on ourselves and I mean, if we had to answer that question very succinctly, we keep on doing it to ourselves because it's part of our safety and survival wiring from childhood. You know the underlying pattern. I mean the main. Like lots of the research showed that one of the main contributors to burnout is perfectionism, and perfectionism is arises generally always in our childhood, either in our family, home or sometimes at school. If there's a lot of shaming at school that we had we kind of development of perfectionist there but and that that messaging around you need to get things perfect to be okay, you know, to be an okay human you have to be perfect. That's debilitating because you can't ever be perfect. But we keep on striving for that but we're not even aware of that often. Yeah, absolutely.
Flic :I love how you talk a lot about the nervous system, because this is something I really had to look out for my own burner and how I help other people look at theirs. The nervous system it's. It's that paradox, isn't it? When I think of parents, it's that paradox of you're trying to, you know, slay parenting and do the best. Meanwhile you're operating from such this kind of reactive nervous system, that from your own childhood, and I know that's something you really help shine a light on for people, yeah.
Cath:Yes, so should I explain a bit what what I'd love you to actually yes, please, thank you Well um.
Cath:So our nervous system is shaped by the nervous systems we grow up around, and what's really key is what are stress responses Like? How do we respond to stress? Do we respond to stress in a way where our frontal cortex goes totally offline and we just go a bit crazy? You know, we either go into fight flight, we freeze, or we shut down, or we kind of really go into um falling. And many of us grew up with parents who, and that sort of nervous system, which is very reactive, means we have a very narrow window of tolerance.
Cath:So we have a narrow band within which we can function, um without getting really overwhelmed or shut down. And that band is very much based on our physiological markers. So it's very much like what's your blood pressure doing? What's your heart rate doing? How hot are you? Are you sweating? Um, you know, are you feeling very overwhelmed from a sensory perspective?
Cath:And a lot of the time you notice that when you start into maybe, say, go into a rage or something you've got hotter, your heart is racing, your blood pressure is raised and in that place where we've got a lot of stress hormones pumping through our body, um, we switch away from using our frontal cortex, which is the part of our brain that typically manages our um, the central part of our brain, so our megaloma and then also our brain stem to kind of has mastery over those and we just go into these responses which are in our brain stem, essentially um, which is like an older part of our brain, and um, I mean, I'm massively simplifying stuff here, but um, but when we, when we've had parents who you know, if we spilled a glass of milk or if we didn't say we didn't want to hug our granny, or we threw our cup, or we threw our food or we had a meltdown in the parking lot, which we all do, we all did Children haven't changed, we all were doing this but um, in my generation I'm 48, there was not really much understanding what that sort of stuff and and behaviorism really dominated parenting.
Cath:And so that would be that we would reward good behavior and punish bad behavior and um, and that our mother would have a free cart or father would have a free cart. Um, if we spilt the milk and we maybe got smacked for spilling the milk or we got sent away for spilling the milk because there was an idea that we could manage more things than we could, if you know what I mean.
Cath:Like there's, we're only really learning now how well, no I mean I think that I think some parents have had an awareness that a child is a child, so a child can't perform at an adult level.
Cath:But many people really expect their children to be able to do things to a level of competence which a child cannot do and because they are often perfectionists, they expect perfect from their child. So if I'm a perfectionist who can't bear crumbs because cleaning is something that makes you know, that makes me feel in control if my child, like, makes a huge mess with their food, that's going to send me crazy and so I'm very reactive there in my nervous system and I'm creating a child who is also going to be very reactive in their nervous system because they've never, when something stressful has happened, no one said that's okay, don't worry, we just, you know, we'll expel milk. Of course you do. I always make mistakes like that and really normalised it and being emotionally connected in that stress Because what happens, and I'm really like going on now and I'm going around to know, I love it, I keep going, I love it.
Cath:Just tell me I'm talking too much.
Cath:There's that thing about, you know, if someone says, even now, like if I make a mistake, and I go, oh, no, worries, you know, it's okay, no biggie, that's fine and it's so calming you're just like okay, we can survive this, we can survive our own humanness.
Cath:But so many of us have learned that no one can survive our own humanness, like you know, as we were as children and so this perfectionism develops because perfectionism is a cover over for shame, you know, it's a defense against not being honoured and seen and accepted and heard in all our messy beauty as a child and, very importantly, actually in perfectionism, one of the things the research shows is that we haven't had our negative affect held. So we haven't had, you know, because there's a whole, there's a. If we imagine all the feelings in the world in a circle, 50% of them might be like what we might turn positive, like I don't know, happiness, joy, all the things that you. You know you want your child to be happy and kind or whatever. But then there's also rage, anger, boredom, apathy, disgust, disdain, contempt, and we need to also know that it's okay to have those feelings and emotions. But many of us don't learn that, and so the perfectionism is a lot about. I have to be a certain way to be okay.
Flic :Yeah, absolutely, and when you think about it, there's going to be people. Well, certainly, I did this. So you're going to that work environment and you know, you're kind of and I worked in a tech startup, so again, it's that badge of honor working all hours. You're up till three, you're up till four. Oh my God, that's amazing. Like, do you remember that badge of honor? And just have another red ball don't sleep. Oh my God, I know exactly. You know what I can remember doing.
Flic :I swapped my phone with one of my sons and you know how you get the health data on your phone. I never paid attention to it when I was like burning out, but it was really sad, kath. I noticed that between there was a period of three months towards the end, before I left my job, where my average sleep was three hours and 42 minutes, and I was like what the hell? But I swear, I didn't even know. I disassociated myself so much but I didn't even clue into the fact this was happening. I think a lot of people who burn out they're like shocked, they're kind of it just creeps through the back door, doesn't it? Because you're just so focused on? I guess it's that perfectionism, it's that surviving. It's working with that triggered nervous system that you don't use, so dissociated from what you're feeling and experiencing, yeah.
Cath:I mean, I think that I think it's really great that you talked about association, because that's that's the facilitator. We think about it because if we're very connected to on to our bodies, yes, then we notice. Oh yes, I'm really tired. I actually can't keep my eyes open at 7pm, so I'm going to take myself to sleep.
Cath:But many of us are very disconnected and that starts in childhood because if you don't have someone being with you and loving you gently and helping you connect to your body and knowing it's okay and being with you through everything, dissociation and disconnecting is such a fabulous survival strategy.
Cath:It's a fabulous survival strategy. Like dissociation gets a really bad rap and it's. I think it's like kind of really it's not appreciating enough of the nuance of why we have dissociated and we've dissociated to survive stuff in our childhood where there just wasn't enough capacity coming from my parents and we couldn't be present in whatever was going on in our family home. And I mean, it's not to say we don't have to beat up on our parents, but you know, if we think about my age, like my parents were parented by people who were in the Second World War, yes, and so those parents were not going to be present. For my parents, yeah, and there was a lot of addiction, and so that's also again disconnection, and so then they have not been allowed to be present in their bodies. So how can they help us be present in our bodies? So if we, like I really think burnout recovery could be characterized as reconnection to self and like really tuning into all the messages that your body tells all the time.
Flic :Yeah, I love that reconnection to yourself, because I've often thought, oh my gosh, it's my experience. It was like a realignment. It was coming back home to myself. What did I actually like? She spent decades. Not even. You're just providing, you know, and giving to others and just and as you say it's, it comes from that little nervous system that's just trying to stay safe and crisis management, you know, and so I love that. It is that reconnection to yourself. It's which is why and anyone listened to this who's really struggling in the light oh my God, this is awful, but why, I don't know. Burn up recovery, you know, stick with the path. It's a bit of a gift in the way, like you have a real chance to look at what is working for you and what is, and changing that.
Cath:And recalibrating.
Flic :Oh, recalibrating, yeah, yeah it's. It can feel very lonely, can't it, kath, when you're doing this.
Cath:It's very lonely, I mean, I think it's very. It's so because I think also, it can be very depressing to be in the stage where we feel like, how come I can't go on at the same pace and why do I have to tend to myself so much? And, and I think that we have to tend to ourselves so much In some way, I think many of us have to learn as adults to really tend to ourselves, because we haven't been tended to enough as children. Yeah, and there's so much grief because there's also so much grief in a burnout, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a burnout journey, you know in a burnout journey.
Flic :Oh, I'm so glad you said yes. There is a lot of grief and I wasn't expecting that. There's a lot of kind of like looking at things that you kind of missed out on. Or it's also interesting, isn't it Because and you must find this with your clients that it's kind of frustrating that you can't be on go go go mode all the time, because there's an element of we grew up with. We were worthy if we were slaying all of these goals and achieving all of these metrics. And I found that it was almost like if I just had a normal day. I was like, oh, that's not good, is it Because I was so used to just overachieving? And you know, I can remember a colleague said, oh gosh flick, you're like a machine. Now, if someone said that to me now, I'd be like, oh my God, that's really bloody sad. But honestly, rewind, four years ago. I was like, yes, I'm doing all right, you know I mean, I mean it's.
Cath:I love that you say that, because sometimes I've said to my husband I feel like a machine because it's very difficult to let this go. It's very difficult. The recalibration that I'm talking about I'm still recalibrating. It's very difficult to to, kind of, because they're such a high. There's a high that comes from our own stress hormones essentially. Yes, I'm having them pump around our body and it disconnects Again. That that really like feeling into. Oh, I'm actually really physically tired, but now because I've got so much adrenaline coursing around in me, I'm in that tired with wide space. But in that tired with wide space, I might be able to do like I don't know a whole lot more chores, or look at my to do list and crack on with a few things, which then makes us feel proud of ourselves. But it's such a false premise. It's such a false premise that we're worthy because we're achieving.
Flic :Yes, and sometimes there's a comfort in.
Flic :I can remember thinking that I had so much to do and instead of saying, okay, you want me to do this, what are you going to take off my plate?
Flic :You know, instead of doing that because you know I was doing all of this at work and then I was because I felt guilty as a parent for do, for putting so much energy into my work I then felt I needed to give equal measure and go to all of the sports events, all of the kids stuff, like it was just this ridiculous, impossible to do list. But in I can remember one day thinking, instead of going, oh, I need to cross things off the list, I told myself I will only feel better once I've cost everything off the list and there's a comfort in that and it's just. This is where you know burnout recovery, where you often need support from someone like you, where you need coaching sometimes, because sometimes you're going to need those external compassionate eyes to kind of go Okay, okay, take it back a step, because we're so used to just going a mile a minute that and it can feel kind of scary and discombobulating to actually take your foot off off the accelerator pedal.
Cath:It is, it really is. I mean it's so, you know, if I totally feel like that, I sort of I look at my own schedule and about what I'm trying to achieve and actually is it in line with my values? I'm really pondering that around. I want to really be in my life with my children. I've got seven year old twins and I don't want to overcommit to work so that so that I miss stuff with them, you know, and then it makes me get ratty and frustrated and then then that comes out in my mothering and so, but it's so complicated because it's so gratifying to be efficient.
Cath:Yeah, and I think that I mean, when we talk about overworking, it links to perfectionism.
Cath:It links to to shifting expectations all the time and changing goalposts, but also I think it really links to how race towards views as a child in our home and were we allowed to like, like so many people were not allowed to sleep late, or you, you had to get out of bed out of a certain time because your parents felt uncomfortable with you sleeping, or they, like I had a mother who was always just trying to squeeze in one extra chore, and that's her word chore. I mean, I never really heard anyone say chore, they more say task or to do this. But there was always that time, that sort of trying to use each last bit of time. And I do that trying to use each last bit of time, and so I'm really trying to unwind that and think it's okay to rest. But that's also a very uncomfortable for our body because we get signs of a sense is a lack of safety, I think, comes up. You really have to tolerate the discomfort in your own body when you let yourself rest.
Flic :Yeah, it's good around this conversation. It's such honesty. I love it because you know it's hard being a parent. I know I've got two teams and actually just a slight, because mine have just gone back to school after the Christmas break and they both fell asleep on the sofa at six o'clock and I'm like, oh boy, exactly. I was like, oh, don't worry, your body's just getting used to remember we've got dark at night. Okay, we're going to have a nutritious dinner, have a shower, get like really relaxed, go to bed, we chill, it's all good.
Flic :But that has taken a lot of proactive work on myself and to realize because I think a lot of parents we tend to we want to do the best for our kids, we want to do the best in our parenting and we forget that actually the best thing we can do, the greatest gifts I always say like little eyes are watching you is to model this stuff and to fan the flames of the rest and relaxation. Isn't it? Self care really is not selfish. Show them, show them how it's done. You know it doesn't even need to be this like in your face kind of method. Just show those daily practices of like we connect to me, to self, isn't it?
Cath:And like honoring sleep and honoring chill out time and sitting on the sofa. I mean I think I think parenting is the hardest, hardest, hardest thing in the whole wide world and sometimes sub in the most lovely moments I've had with my children, just sitting on the sofa with them. With them, they both still like to kind of crowd onto my lap as much as they can and and I love that because then we can get cozy under a blanket and we can watch. I don't know. Unfortunately, we've been watching a program called waffle a lot this holiday because my kids just went back to data school and I'm just a bit tired of that waffle, the wonder.
Cath:English parents might know that, but. But I think that there's so much, yeah, there's so much pressure on parents trying to get everything right and to squeeze in one last thing into abandon ourselves at the cost of our children, and that will be so familiar for many of us, that abandonment. But it just serves no one.
Flic :I know, I know it really doesn't. It really doesn't. I mean, what are the things you would say to a client who you were helping? Because you know, let's face it you've burnt out. You've literally been abandoning yourself for.
Flic :I feel somewhat. Some people come to me and say, oh, I've been burnt. I've been burnt out for two years and in my mind I'm thinking it's going to be longer than that, because you know that's, that's the reality of it. How do you help someone kind of tap back into themselves? You know they've been abandoning themselves. It's, it's a tricky path, isn't it? To kind of switch gears. How do you help someone do that?
Cath:Well, I think it's a really long process in a way, because you can't just say to someone okay, you need to get a certain amount of hours of sleep, and do this because actually we are the ones you have to implement those sort of changes and our bodies are the one who've got so used to firing on only a short amount of time or short amount of sleep and using a lot of caffeine or a lot of sugar to kind of to facilitate that.
Cath:So I think that I think it's a lot about reconnecting to your body and I think body based therapies like massage and craniosacral therapy and any other things like that are really helpful for down regulating on the nervous system.
Cath:I mean, I don't specifically focus on like working with burnout, but I think the things like I think you need a full, like you need to like look at your food, yeah, and see how you're eating and how does that facilitate, because often we're using a lot of sugar or we are constantly setting ourselves up for blood sugar spikes, so then we reach for high fat, high sugar to push us through. So shifting the way we eat is really helpful. I think it's really important actually to do gentle exercise, because we need to feel that, even when we, like I, often talk about having an ache in my back and often it's better to just go for a 20 minute walk. Yeah, then for me to try and lie down, because if I am not that good at sleeping during the day, I've never used to be able to do that, and now I can do that but I need, like a long lead time. I'm not one of those people who can just like lie down for 20 minutes and that's like that too.
Flic :Oh, I'm glad you said that. I'm like I either do nothing for three hours, yeah.
Cath:Yes, I can't. I need to like calm my system sufficiently to actually sleep during the day. Basically, yeah, and so for me, I would more likely to get stressed if I have a short period of time, so I would rather then have an Epsom salt bath, because Epsom salts are very soothing, like magnesium, goes transdermally through your skin then and all go for a 20 minute or half an hour walk, because that is uplifting and not that I then want to be productive, but then I'm more likely to be able to. I'm bet I'm more likely to have feel better in my head because I've shifted my nervous system state and a little bit of physical tiredness, as opposed to just this mental exhaustion helps, yes, but I think that the beginning of a burn, that journey, is really about simplifying a lot. Yes, so cutting out, because most people if you, if what I do is I look at my diary at the beginning of the week like a head to the week and I imagine how I'll feel in each day, and most people actually can say, oh yeah, that looks really quite heavy, even if they are not yet at the stage of being able to go okay, I'm actually going to cancel that. They can actually look and think, oh yeah, on Monday I've got these like five back to back meetings and I have to drive in between them and that's going to actually to kill me. So I think that's the first stage of kind of like looking at whatever actually got planned and where can I simplify and having the willingness to do it, because no one is going to come to us and say, by the way, you need to only have three meetings that you're going to drive between, and I think so much if it is actually us going.
Cath:Yeah, I'm just not that superhuman machine. I wish I could be the superhuman machine because it's gratifying to get all this feedback from people that I am a superhuman machine, but really we're just abandoning ourselves and in the end, like if I do that to myself, say, if I do have a Monday like that, I don't drive between meetings because I'm seeing clients in a fixed place. But then what happens is I'm really irritated at night, irritated with my children. I want them to hurry up and go to bed. I'm like disconnected at bath time because I'm like overwrought and there's real consequences and then often you can't actually sleep at night because you too kind of worked out.
Cath:But going back to your question. I think I've started to waffle now, but I think magnesium is something that's really important for nervous systems. I'm not a naturopath or a doctor, so I really want to say that, but most I think the stats for America are that 80% of adults are deficient in magnesium Wow, and it's really important for your nervous system. It's really important to sleep, especially if you wake up in the middle of the night and then you need to go back to sleep. It really helps with that. So you're eating our food, gentle exercise and really looking at our priorities.
Flic :Yeah, I love how you spoke about values earlier on, because that's something that really helps you kind of shift from because when you've been abandoning yourself for decades, you're like I don't even know what I like. I don't even know myself. It's a very real misalumia. You're like, oh, you can feel quite lost. And I think it's really helpful, isn't it, when you go back to center and go what do I value in life? Because I think from there onwards it makes it easier to kind of reconnect with yourself, doesn't it?
Cath:Yes, exactly, I think a values exercise is kind of the core of everything, because then when you're making a decision about, oh, should I commit to doing this extra piece of work, you're like no, because actually I want to be present for my children and that will mean that I have to squeeze in more work around the edges, so I'm going to say no to it. But then we have to confront our fear of what happens if I say no to it. I mean I think that that thing that you just said about I don't even know myself is it's very profound kind of trauma healing what we're talking about here, like we can etch into self and knowing that, because many of us we learn about our needs Through how our parents met our needs and how important our needs were.
Cath:And so many of us just grew up tending to our parents, yes, and being their emotional coach, or managing our siblings, or doing household tasks, or you know, there's a lot of children parenting their parents and, by definition, in that we are left out as the child, yes, our needs go by the wayside.
Flic :Absolutely, because if you're growing up in an environment where you're constantly having to read the room and take the temperature, do that emotional monitoring. Ironically, you and I've seen this in kind of the fields I've worked in, like within hospital play therapy and mental health it actually becomes like your unique skill set that makes you very good at your job. And the problem is when you just only using those skillsets for that, you're not tapping into what you need, then that's when the self abandonment comes, doesn't it Like you? Just it's, it's, it's tricky, it's tricky, and I see that. I've experienced that myself and I see that for other people it's tricky to be like you have a skill set, maybe a great success, but how's going to now change it that I I look after myself but can still kind of, you know, use that skill set for for my work or, you know, helping others, or you know.
Cath:Yeah, and you obviously are using it to help others with this, with all your work you do. But I think that I always characterize this as that our radar is turned out to us, so we're sending signals out constantly when you what you were saying about the emotional temperature, and then we adjust our behavior so that they will be okay. Yes, so that we can be safe, and we needed to do that in childhood, many of us, but we have to learn that in adulthood we are safe, even if we do something that they find with displeasing or doesn't work for them. But that's a really. You know, you have to really practice it. That practice sitting with other people's displeasure at your boundaries and it and you saying no, I can't do that or no, I can't, you know, overextend yourself because, especially at work, you know bosses like people like me and you make fabulous employees. You know no one's going to turn around and say you're delivering too much.
Flic :I know it's so true. It's just no one's going to say that no, it's so true, it's so true. I've listened to your podcast and you've shared some beautiful conversations on your podcast, really touching on this and other people's experiences of growing up and kind of I really love the Josh Connoly one. Oh, my God, that was so good, that was such a good episode.
Flic :I loved it. It was so good. I guess I share this because I want people to know when you're not alone, no, I know, because I come back to this often in my work, because I'm aware that people do feel so alone and isolated and lost, but you're not, you're not alone, no, and I think I love how you talk about shame, in the sense of you know, the more we share our stories, the less that shame can survive, can thrive. You know we need to be sharing our stories and having those open conversations.
Cath:Yeah, and we've all got a beautiful story. You know, I deeply believe that everyone has got their own story and they're all important and valid and but many of us learned and actually one of my main purposes behind growing yourself up is to break down shame, because I've had some experiences in my life where people have really like broken shame down for me, okay, and it's been really, really freeing. And so many of us because the shame, because basically perfectionism and all these adaptations are to try and cover over that shame you know that terrible feeling that you sometimes get, where you think I actually am really shit, like I've totally got it wrong, I'm a terrible person, I've missed the boat. And when you're in that shame spiral, like reaching for more work or more perfectionism, there seems to be what will help. But really we just need someone to serve.
Cath:But you're not. You know there's nothing wrong with you, you're just having a tricky time. Or someone did a post Like I can go into a shame spiral on an Instagram thinking I'm like rubbish or done a crap post or something. Or someone thinks I'm an idiot or something because I've got a quite a big shame call. But then someone just goes it's okay. You know, not everyone's going to like you, of course. You were having a tricky time. You've been through so much, you know, in your mothering or something like that, and when someone is warm and sees you, then you can kind of just you like get that feeling oh yeah, I am laughable, I am okay, yeah, and I just, we just need that more.
Flic :We do, we are oh my God, we really do and something that I think and I'm trying to kind of model to my boys. It's really tricky, though, and it's that piece of not only loving yourself, because, let's face it, it's really easy to be like, yeah, I'm really proud of myself, I really love myself when you've done X, y and Z. But on the days when you're like, oh, maybe mistake or or that is uncharacteristically not like me and I've, you know, messed up on that, those are the days that it's really hard to love yourself and show yourself compassion, but those are the ones that you really have to double down on and do it. Yes.
Cath:Yeah, yeah, you're so right. I think those are the days we were just talking before this when we said about it's really it's hard to be imperfect.
Cath:It's really hard I find it when I've like on the days when I've been like thinking, can you just get out of my face towards my children, like you know, when they're like under my feet and I'm like, oh my God, like just leave or go back to school or just move, to be so gentle to myself. But I mean I don't want to be talking like that or kind of putting that energy out. But there are days that I am like that because I'm overwhelmed myself and to just be really soft with myself and because the softness with ourselves is that's reparenting. You know, they're really giving ourselves the loving, nurturing that we didn't get. But also then we can access more ability to actually connect. Because when we're feeling, you know, when we're in that kind of shame and beating up on ourselves place, we can't access the compassion and the connection for others either.
Flic :Yeah, oh, so true. I can remember when my kids were little and I was working with children. So I've worked all day with children and then you're coming home and you're making dinner and you got your kids and honestly, sometimes it was just the bloody, sheer noise, the volume. Do you know? You're making dinner and no volume. And so I'd have to. I would put earplugs in because I thought it's not their fault that they're having fun and talking and laughing and shouting and spider-man's being thrown across the living room. But also I had to be like I've got to look after myself here, I have to nurture myself. And I would often be like, what would I tell my friend, you know? And I'd be like, oh, I tell it, but bloody earplugs it. So I have to try. If you can't, kind of, if it doesn't feel natural to start to talk to yourself, compassion, try and think of what you would say to a friend, because that's a message is there isn't it.
Cath:Yes, exactly, and I think you're right, because I think many people can't, they think they're not deserving of it, especially with the burnout thing. I think that, because of the time, with the perfectionism I mean, I initially and lots of people have worked with feel like this that self compassion is some sort of a cop out. You know that you're taking the easy road and you're kind of letting yourself off the hook, and it's absolutely not. It's absolutely not. And particularly when we have not had our needs met in childhood, we need tons and tons and tons of self compassion. And if you might not think that you haven't had your needs met in childhood, so that's also. That can sometimes be a really rude awakening when you look back on your childhood and you think, gosh, it really sort of was a bit of a desert.
Flic :Yes, yes, I'm glad you touched on that, because that is something absolutely you can definitely start to experience all sorts of things because I mean, let's face it, if you were a child who was crisis, managing that emotional monitoring, it feel it's, it's, it's confronting you've used this word. It's confronting when you're like, uh, hang on a minute, that wasn't great. You know, because you're so used to trying to make them feel better and make sure they're okay, because then that makes your life a lot, lot easier. And the moment, those moments, you start to walk down a path and start to go, oh, that that wasn't cool and that wasn't great. Yeah, really show yourself in self compassion Because, as you say, it's going to feel confronting.
Cath:Yeah, it's very painful and I think that many of us you know denial is a very, very helpful protective mechanism and sometimes it's easier to stand denial and say you know, it was lovely, or I'm very close to my parents or my mom's my best friend, when actually your mom is not your best friend. It's that you constantly phone her 10 times a day and make her feel better about her life. But actually looking at that and going, oh, wow, there's nothing about this that actually nourishes me is so painful, because then you have to really confront the reality of all the other losses and what you might never have got. So it's sometimes easier to stay in that place of the fantasy of what it might be like without actually noticing how much you're giving away.
Flic :Yes, oh my gosh. And again it speaks to why it's. It's important. It's nothing.
Flic :It's absolutely good to have someone that you work with, like yourself to, so you have that kind of support, someone to lean on on those days that you think, because it can feel really confront. I don't know. It's a very discombobulating path to start walking down. The good news is that as you start walking down, you start to really feel free and you start to replace. I want people to know that you know if they're just walk, starting this path here, keep going, keep going, keep going and get help and support from someone like Kath, because the further down the path you get, the more lighter you start to feel and free, and that's when you can really. It becomes so much easier to start loving yourself compassionately and wanting the best for yourself, which then triggers out to your circle and your modeling, to you know those in your life, whether you have children, whether you have co workers. To me, keep going down that path, because it's a win, win, but it's it's. You need someone to hold your hand, you need someone to cheer you on, don't you? You know?
Cath:Yeah, I mean that can come in the form of many things, like you can have a recovery group or or a psychotherapist or coach or whatever, but I think that that it takes so much.
Cath:It's very brave to look at the patterns that we've had in our lives, I think, and kind of courageous to start to tend to ourselves, because because I actually don't think it's selfish, because it's scary when you kind of look at all the things you've learned and realize how disconnected you are from self and how how like many things you land up doing might not have actually been because you wanted to do that. And you know we make career decisions or we choose partners based on what other people think, and so it's so liberating to then notice I like this, I can actually have more of that in my life, or I can change my career and I can actually do something I really love. And that process of getting to know oneself is so kind of it's very special actually, and I suppose I want to say to your listeners that everyone is worthy like that. No one no one listening was ever think other people are more worthy. Everyone is is like. Everyone is deserving everyone.
Flic :Oh, absolutely Absolutely. Because, let's face it, there'll be some people like me who you kind of go no, no, like you're just so used to putting other people's needs above your own that it feels so strange to prioritize your own needs and and then it does become a gift wrapped in like I'm not worthy, I'll. I'll be able to have that when I do x, y and z, when I achieve this, this and this, then I can have that. It's supposed to be like love. You need this right now. So, yeah, I'm really glad you said that Again. This is why you're brilliant Cath. You just put out these lovely whispers of compassion and warmth out there. This is why we need to be more from you. You know it's so important, isn't it? Because it's? I know how hard it is to access. Access, that permission piece.
Cath:Yeah, it is. The permission piece I think is just so huge. We're all looking for someone else to sign off on the fact that we don't have to do as much or that we are valuable. You know, just when we've done this much work and I mean I'm also doing that I'm looking for I want to achieve one certain thing and I find it. I've let it go for a while, but I keep coming back to that and it's a real kind of it's that coming back to the values, I really have to keep coming back and thinking what is it that I want to have in my life? You know, I'm nearly 50. Okay, I can't believe. I mean I found so old, but I am Stop it. Okay, I'm 47. I'm 47. I'm gonna say I'm nearly 50.
Flic :No, I'm 46. We're fine, darling, we're fine.
Cath:I'm 47 and I've got seven year old twins and I'm like what is it that I want for my children to feel about their childhood and how does that impact about how I? You know my division between work and parenting and how, like, what gives me a lot of joy? And sometimes I think work gives me more joy than parenting because it's much easier in my, it's more in my control and it's that kind of gratifying thing. But what really gives me joy is being with my children, when I am connected and peaceful and not feeling stressed about something else that I should be achieving, all that I feel I should be achieving. And so it's like really a complex pattern, I think, to unwind, of coming back into our own lives and believing like that the ordinary beauty is enough. You know what I mean.
Flic :Oh, my gosh, it absolutely is. And you know what's really interesting? Because I'm listening to this and I'm like, oh, cat, like just you being you. You know your kids are just like it's an absolute gift, like they're just going to be able to watch you and learn from you and just be, and you'd be really like. I'm thinking, oh, you're lucky, lucky kids, like it's all good, so it's interesting, you're there, going, oh, but, like you know, is this the kind of parent I want to be? But what's? You know what's really interesting?
Flic :When I was working with a coach and working on self love and self compassion, one of the exercises was to get someone to write a love note to you, like say all the things they love about you. Right, okay, now, honestly, it took me all of a week because I thought, oh, I can't ask anyone to do that, like I don't want to put them out, I don't want to put pressure on them, I don't want to do not me couldn't ask anyone. I spoke to my best friend like every day I couldn't ask her but me, literally the day before I had to see her for my coaching session, I thought, oh, my god, I can't be late with my homework. Yes, I've got to be good. So you know what? I ended up asking my son, who he would have been 16 at the time, because he's very brutal, very honest, wants to be a stand up comic. And I thought, oh, you know what? Like, he's just going to like say whatever. So I said, hey, you know, I've got this exercise. What are you mind doing? He's like, yeah, come here.
Flic :And he got his paper out and honestly, I was like, oh, my god, it was the most beautiful letter and it was all the simple things that he loved about me. It wasn't, you know. It's apparently like, oh, I want to be able to do this and provide them with this and then take them here, here. And it wasn't any of those things. It was like, really, really simple things that he loved about me. And I just thought I actually said to him, oh, my god, as a parent, there were many days where I thought, oh, I'm a bit of a dick at this. And he went mum, never, never. And I thought, oh, and it's going to be the same for you. You know, here you are going oh, I'm trying to do this and this and your kids are going to go up with my god, my mum is this amazing psychotherapist who's just like putting out all these positive messages and she was just so real with us. It's going to be the same, but they want.
Cath:You know, it's what you said about the simple things In holidays. It's funny you say that because I took them to a. Actually, I want to know what your son said, so then I'll tell you my story. What did he say? What did he say with the things that he left?
Flic :Oh, my god. I mean, I used to have it on my pinball because I was like I've got to look at this every day. It was really simple. Things like you always make us laugh, you're always give us a hug, you're always asking how we are, you're always it was like simple, simple stuff. Because I'm thinking, oh, you know, I want to take them. I want to take them to Rome and go around the Coliseum because they look, you know, I'm thinking of all these big scale things that I'm like, oh, I've never got to do that. And he was like oh, I love it when you start making us laugh about X, y and Z, and I love it when you, what was it when you start making sound effects in the car? It was really silly, silly, simple things that I don't even register when I'm doing. They were like I love that, that's the best thing. And I thought, oh, my god.
Cath:That's so sweet and that's also so important actually for for your listeners who listen to burnout recovery, because often we set ourselves up and I do this as well I set myself up for big things which might be too much for my own window of tolerance actually, and and then they don't necessarily like them that much. And then you're like, oh, my god, why did I bother, you know, and really what they like? Because I took my kids to a jump like a trampoline park last week, because it was. They went back to school today and I was like, okay, let's do something nice on like a lovely, on Friday we'll go for lunch. And at the trampoline park they both complained about. Well, they one wanted to go on some clip in client section which I was like, no, we're not going to do that. That's way too, that's way too complicated for me.
Cath:And they complained about the noise and they wanted to drink like very strange colored, I don't know smoothies or something. I was like, no, I'm not buying those drinks. So then they got across about that. And then we went for lunch and the lunch was nice. But what they're most love is when we play games at home. You know, like whatever games. There's a bingo game we've been playing a lot of, and another game, I don't know, some memory game or something, and they like the time when I just sit on the floor with them, yeah, and we play games and we just play and we connect, or we bake. They like baking, okay, and so it's the simple stuff, really, and it's this the stuff that doesn't tax us too much actually. So this is like a good reminder.
Flic :Yes, it is. It's the stuff that doesn't taxes and the stuff that we can just really be ourselves.
Cath:Yeah, you know yes, oh, she baking does tax me if I'm honest with him, but anyway, but, but again, I don't, yeah, I don't know. I feel like I'm waffling.
Flic :No, it's funny, I was never a parent. I bloody hate ballgames. I don't know what it is, I just really struggled to do ballgame. So I was never that parent. I'd have to really force myself to play them. And looking back now I'm like why didn't I just say, oh, it's not my jam, but I'll do this, this and this with you. Like you know, there's nothing wrong with just being honest and open, because I'd want my boys to be that way. In fact, I see that, I see that in them they'll actually, you know, be very honest and go yeah, no, love, I don't like that.
Cath:And it's true, because I think I used to feel like that about crafts, that I needed to be a crafty mum. Yeah, and I do let them paint at home and I really they do quite a lot of painting, but I'm not like I don't know what to do with, like I don't know, I don't know, I don't even know all those crafting things, but like I'm pump homes and like oh, I know, glitter and thymar and oh my god.
Cath:All of those things, and I used to always wish I could be like that. But I think there's something about all of us are different and we have to really accept and celebrate, like our own selves and what we like, where we come alive, and share that with them, because I think there's more likely to come more burnout when we set ourselves up to be like. You know, I'm going to back with them every day. I'm going to do this every day like the simplest, easiest things, like more ease, more ease, more ease, more ease. Maybe we all have more ease.
Flic :Yeah, because our to do lists are already long enough. So to put parenting like moments of joy on the to do list, it just sets them up for like misery, doesn't it yeah?
Cath:exactly. And then we get like really pissed off when I hope I'm allowed to sort of say rude words here. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We get really like you know, when you most try to set up those magical moments, or the moments which are the least, least magic.
Flic :Oh my gosh, there's nothing worse is that when you've done something and that you just see their faces be like, oh for the love of God. But meanwhile you could have just sat on the floor in your pajamas with a cup of coffee and just played a simple game that they enjoy. And that's the things they're going to remember.
Cath:Yeah, but I think that that's quite hard for us when we're perfectionist, because there's an idea of I've got to get up, I've got to get out the house, you've got to go and do stuff, and so tolerating, learning to sit with our enoughness Often. Sometimes we have to have a burnout, I think, to even get to that point of of of being prepared to try things that are simpler or less glamorous or less hard.
Flic :Yeah, yes, exactly, especially if you were brought up in an environment where appearances matter. Yes, yes, that's a big one, that's a big one.
Cath:That's a huge, absolutely huge thing, I think yes.
Flic :Yeah, and I guess if you're listening to this, you know, and this is resonating. I just want to say I see you, I hear you, keep going Because it's, as you say, it's brave work to to look at inside this box and look at what you want to change for yourself. It's, you know, a champion, anyone to do it? I really do. It's it's hard work, but keep going because it's really free and liberating and I think only you know joy and happiness is the other side of it, without it being that toxic positivity, joy and happiness, I mean like proper, real, that, that harmony is you feel in your nervous system.
Cath:Yeah, and I can connect you to self and connection to our self, even when we're being because we're so. It's such a big shift to really love and and and honor ourselves when we're sad or grumpy or rude or unkind. But many of us were really kind of punished or ignored or sent away when we were like that as a child. So it's so healing to claim that back and to know that you know it's part of being human.
Flic :It is. It is because how many of us were brought up and told don't be Mardi. What are you sulking about? What are you upset about? Stop crying. Yeah, you know. Or gosh that ridiculous one like I'll give you something to cry about. Oh my God, it's so silly, isn't it? I know it's so threatening.
Cath:Imagine, if imagine if our partner said that to us, but that was what we said to children constantly.
Flic :I know it's so, so silly and yeah, but I think there's a lot of. I know the world's a. I know it feels heavy at the moment, doesn't it, and there's a lot going on in the world, but I do feel there's a lot of hope. When I look at my kids and their perspective on the world and the things they're doing, I'm like there is hope. There is hope, I think there's so much hope.
Cath:I mean it is. There's like such atrocities going on in the world. It is so heavy. But I think I think that we're at the end of a period of this power over capitalism and kind of patriarchy and my supremacy and and I think I've taken in the last kind of three years I've taken a lot of comfort in astrology and we're we're coming into the age of Aquarius and the age of Aries and Pisces are ending and so it's going to be. I think there's going to be different things replacing the patriarchy. You know. I mean I don't know what that's going to look like, but I feel like all of these type of conversations where we are advocating for coming back to yourself and then being in community actively with others who are doing that, it's so powerful because we're changing, we're going to change the world with love and deeply, deeply believe in that.
Flic :I know, and what better thing I mean, it's the only. And when you look at it, everything boils down to love love for yourself and love for others, doesn't it? Yeah, it really does. Yeah, oh, my gosh, this has been the loveliest chat car, thank you, I mean oh my gosh, it feels really nourishing.
Flic :I feel like I've been wrapped up in a blanket. I was fabulous. I just know it's your wisdom. You just have this lovely magic. It's really going to help a lot of people out there and I just love the work you do and the message you put out there is brilliant. So thank you for that.
Flic :Now at the end of our chats. I've been asking guests like quickfire, like heart questions, because I find it really interesting we all answer differently. So if you're up for it, I'd love to know on your dodgy tougher days, do you watch for, move your body or move them out?
Cath:Sometimes both, but often actually an ips and salt bath. Yeah, that's your thing. Yeah, An ips and salt bath, because if I have time it really helps me feel better and I go for a little walk. Yeah, I don't watch that much TV Normally if I don't do something healthy, it's more like I I sort of moan around and I don't get anything done. So that makes me feel worse. I kind of I want to rest but I don't do anything. I scroll endlessly or do something useless. So I'm trying, I'm really trying more of the time to just think okay, you're allowed to have a bath or to just go for a quick walk and just, yeah, I find a friend. You know, on days when I'm like really in my own inner child and I'm feeling like I can't see the wood for the trees, I found someone who was really loving and nourishing and can, you know, mirror back to. Because we need compassion but sometimes we can't access it ourselves.
Flic :No, no, it's lovely to have that, as you say, mirrored back to you. Yeah, I love that. Okay now, bag of almonds or bag of Maltesers, bag of. Maltesers, maltesers and a cup of tea. There's just nothing. You're chocolate on a team. No Um, do you ask for help? Are you happy to hermit? I asked for help. Oh, that's amazing. That's amazing. That's someone who's done the work Well done.
Cath:I think we're all really deserving of lots of help. Actually, I mean, you know like having like a whole support system and you know around us in as many ways as we can get help. I'm a big fan of asking for help. I love that.
Flic :Okay, and then what's the one self compassionate thing you're going to do today that your future self will thank you for?
Cath:I'm not going to eat gluten. Okay, yeah, I've got a. I've got a autoimmune condition and it's taken me a long time to really commit to like my health really properly. Yeah, and I feel sometimes really I have a lot of grief about not having bread or the bread that I like. So I'm really committing to that really properly because I've gone in and out of doing that, you know.
Flic :Yeah, yeah, it's hard to do. It's hard to do and it's that like that psychology is some.
Cath:Soon as someone says you can't have that, I'm like, oh, really wanted out it feels so deprivation, and I mean I feel like a bit ashamed even sharing that because it's such a like what a first world problem that is, but it's so I've had to really look at what are the ways that I'm not helping myself?
Flic :I was going to say it speaks to the daily practice it takes to look after yourself. That's what I hear and it you know it's amazing to come hear that coming from you, because it just goes to show it is a daily practice and it's something we need to commit to and look after ourselves and it's okay to be human another day where we're like, oh, didn't do it, yeah, but yeah, yes, I'm really trying to because I noticed in times when I feel overwhelmed I don't have capacity to really like tend to myself very gently with food, but I'm really working on that.
Flic :Oh, go for it. Oh, this was an absolutely beautiful conversation. Thank you so much for your time. I know you know your wisdom's really going to help some listeners out there. So, thank you, Thank you so much for having me flick.
Cath:It's been really joyful. Thank you so much.
Flic :Okay, you take care. Bye, Bye. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of everyday burnout conversations. Take a peek at the show notes for any links to items discussed today. And if you want to continue the burnout conversation, you can find me on social media at flictaylorwrites, or you can head to my website, flictaylor. com, if you're curious and want to learn more on what it's like to work with me one to one. So, in the meantime, rest up, don't forget to take good care of you, and bye for now.